Since speaking at C3 Every Women’s Conference, we have been following the quackademic Caroline Leaf on Church Watch.
C3 Women’s Conference: A Leaf out of whose book?
How Caroline Leaf’s your brain after a C3 Woman’s conference…
Chris Rosebrough recently reviewed her on his Fighting for the Faith program. We would appreciate it if we had readers transcribe the segment for us if possible. It is a very insightful review.
JANUARY 06, 2015
Perry Noble’s Explanation
Click Here to Download this episode
Program segments:
• John Paul Jackson’s False Prophecy
• What’s Wrong With Dr. Caroline Leaf’s Theology
• Analysis Perry Noble’s Explanation
• Sermon Review: The Jesus Rhythm by Brady Boyd
Source: Chris Rosebrough, Perry Noble’s Explanation, Fighting for the Faith, http://www.fightingforthefaith.com/2015/01/perry-nobles-explanation.html, 08/01/2014. (Accessed 08/01/2014.)
Categories: Uncategorized
About six months ago, carolyn Leaf showed up at my church. Here is the dialog with my pastor about her EXTREMELY BLATENT false teaching! She is not even subtle about it, and I found her to be the most obvious false teacher I’ve ever heard. Notable, I also have never encountered a pastor who could admit he was wrong, in my entire life!
Pastor _____:
Here are my thoughts on the messages from Dr. Carolyn Leaf, which I have now listened to twice (all four presentations). While the scientific research may be excellent, many points from a theological perspective are inaccurate and misleading. I will add that this is not just a matter of opinion, such as topics like pre-destination or the timing on the second coming, etc. These are issues that I believe attempt to place man in God’s position rather than being the clay and him being the potter, according to the scriptures. The plans of our sovereign Lord rarely align with our plans, and if we proceed as though they are we will end up off course.
1. “He’s brilliant, so were brilliant because were made in his image.” I do not believe we are brilliant, but disciples in learning mode, like sheep who at times go astray. Here is an excellent link to a sermon by Charles Spurgeon called “The Carnal Mind Enmity against God.” http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0020.htm
2. “God is not trying to teach us through sickness.” As Jesus suffered, so anyone who wants to follow Him will also suffer. In fact, we are called to identify with the sufferings of Christ for His glory, and for our refinement. See 1 Peter 4:13.
3. “The brain is subservient to the mind. We have the power to change these things.” While I will not oppose the scientific theories presented, we are not the ones in power here. 1 Corinthians 2:5.
4. “Our past, present and future is already done for us. Quantum Physics, no space time dimension. Our wisdom defines our capacity to access His goodness. We must know all of God’s thoughts to be successful in this.” His thoughts are not our thoughts, Isaiah 55:8.
5. “Saying we are not perfect is an insult to God.” The Heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure, who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9. We cannot even trust ourselves! Also, here’s a link to 100 verses about how no one is perfect. http://www.openbible.info/topics/no_one_is_perfect
6. “75 – 98% of current mental, physical emotional illnesses today come from our thought life. The dimensias, cancers, cardial vascular track back to genetic mutations that track back to incorrect signals. The others (2 – 25%) come from exposure to chemicals in food, etc.” This suggests a topic called Mind (or Religious) Science, basically suggesting that man can control his own destiny. This borderlines on Christian Science and New Age Metaphysical teaching that is not of God! Here is a link defining the dangers of this teaching: http://www.gotquestions.org/religious-science.html
7. “In our superposition with God, we are in a position to collect a probability which has not happened in our lives into an actuality.” In our superposition, we need to be glad not in our works, but that our names are written in the lambs book of life and that we are being saved, and will be saved. Luke 10:20.
8. “God has given us everything, and we have to step into our perfect selves to succeed in this area. Our needs are already done.” While there is no time with God, which defines eternity, we are very much in the space-time continuum now, with all its joys, pains, solutions and problems. From our perspective, it is not yet done. And we are not perfect. See 1 Corinthians 13:10-12.
9. “We choose whether we want the enemy to rip us apart by our actions, which is caused by and further creates mental health issues.” As I think about this one, it was Satan who asked God’s permission to afflict Job. It is nothing we can control, because if we could control things we would all choose prosperity. This is part of the Jeremiah 17:9 problem. Also, see Job 1:12.
10. “We should be going from glory, to glory, to glory.” If God is our God, we are going from glory to glory, but I do not believe we are capable of always realizing it. This is interesting: http://www.abideinchrist.com/messages/2cor3v18.html. I like the reference to Stephen in Acts 6, which I am sure would not have been a good example for Carolyn to use because by her definition, Stephen may have been thinking incorrectly and suffering as a result of it.
11. “Drugs were not designed for mental illness but for anesthesia purposes.” “Mental health is not an illness than cannot be controlled, but a disorder that can be controlled.” “Scitsophrenia – 50 years ago a person would have six episodes over two years and things just went away. Today we have psychotropic (anti-psychotic) drugs which turn them into life-long patients.” These are bold statements that require more facts and credibility than your speakers opinion. I believe these are very dangerous generalities. I know people personally with mental illness, and scitsophrenia. 50 years ago people just died!
12. “You are going to activate a miracle in your life. Where is your faith? Must pray without ceasing, but we don’t have to beg. We must activate, this is the kind of faith that will heal.” Finally, this is it. Chris, this is the answer to what I have been asking of you for almost four years on the name it and claim it issue. Of course, you did not say it. At the same time, you do seem to support it, and proclaimed it Sunday by reiterating that we had this speaker at the church. Please, just tell me if River Valley Church is a name it and claim it organization, and we can save a lot of time! Also, please understand that just because I don’t support this kind of theology, does not mean I don’t support the idea of the fact that God can heal in His time. However, I think of the book of Jeremiah, which is all about the religious order of the day being contrary to the warning of God to repent, and instead telling people what they want to hear. In the last days (I believe we are there now), we will see these things again, 1 Timothy 4:1-5. Verse 2 in the NLV version is especially interesting.
My question for you is why would we invite a speaker in to teach false doctrine, leaving many confused and in pursuit of incorrect theology (theology = the study of God) when the teaching at River Valley Church is consistently excellent, week after week after week? I believe ________________ Church owes their followers a reasonable teaching on this issue, and a correction!
I will add that today was day six of my wife not taking her meds, and we spent the day figuring out how to get her back on them, as she is now experiencing the consequence of six days without meds. I already have a call in to the Scott / Carver crisis center because nothing else is open. I realize that Dr. Carolyn Leaf did not suggest anyone just go cold turkey off their meds, but we did not hear Dr. Carolyn Leaf last weekend. My wife’s decision was made based on a conversation at a Lifegroup (and I have talked with them already) where a few ladies agreed that people with mental illnesses don’t really have them, and do not need the crutch of medication. Keep in mind, these ladies are only parroting what they heard from Dr. Carolyn Leaf! We have been trying to get her back on the meds since the Tuesday night Lifegroup, but I cannot shove them down her throat. The consequences of this are massive, but hopefully she will prevail through this and get back to reality quickly because she really does have a lot of responsibilities with “back to school,” as we will be teaching Carter at home this year, which I would prefer not to have jeopardized.
As you have requested, I have not copied other RVC staff on this email. However, I would hope you would discuss it with Pastors _____ or _____, and I would like to hear from them. I am also of course, interested in any correction you have to offer me.
Respectfully yielding to the truth!
Reply:
_____, this is a very long and exhaustive topic to discuss over email. If you want to discuss in detail I suggest setting up a meeting. There is simply too much sensitive material I’m not comfortable covering in an email. I can tell you are frustrated with what happened at Lifegroups and have issue with what Dr. Caroline taught. I can understand and appreciate your feelings and concerns based on your family’s health history. I don’t downplay that at all.
As we bring in guest speakers it is impossible to vet them completely and control their content or interruption of scripture. Sometimes their theology is a little different than ours. Did she share thought provoking content? Yes. Did she share some statements that could be called into question if not viewed in the right context? Yes. She is a neuroscientist talking about the power of the brain and mind. Her most passionate statements were in relations to what our thoughts can do for us. She was not making exegetical statements about scripture, rather conclusions based on scientific study in relation to how God designed us.
My greater concern is that we are once again addressing this topic of healing. We have discussed this at length and I have stated we are not a name it and claim it church, but we do believe healing of all kinds of illness and disease is possible. We will pray for healing for everyone and believe in full faith all things are possible. Short of an official statement from the Elders of the church that is how we view mental illness and healing at the church.
It appears the root issue keeps coming back to “Is this the church for me?” Steve, if you are still having doubts 4 years into it then maybe the answer is clear. There is a strong chance we aren’t the church for you and that’s ok. I’ve been clear with you on what we believe and how we can care for you and your wife. I can promise you we are not perfect and we will make mistakes and will not always get it right, but we strive to do so with everyone that walks through our doors. We can’t keep going down this road every time there is a flare up of differing perspective and/or relational breakdowns.
If you decide you want to meet with me my goal is to talk about root issues. I don’t want to nitpick what he or she said or didn’t say. We need to discuss the heart of the matter, resolve it, and then move on from there. If you want a formal meeting or statement from Pastor Rob and the Elders that will come after we meet if needed.
My Reply back:
Pastor _____:
To reiterate, I am not frustrated with the Lifegroup, and I think _____________ Church has an excellent and balanced ministry. I feel this is the most definite no you have said with regard to name it and claim it theology, which I appreciate.
With regard to the speaker, none of this is nit picking. The speaker was for the most part a false teacher, and you should be happy I have some discernment in this area. The worst thing that can happen is that anyone be led astray. It was not a few words interpreted differently, but the entire presentation. The items in red represent exactly what she said! I am glad to hear again your reinforcement on name it and claim it doctrine. I believe the speaker does perscribe to that doctrine. If her views do not align with River Valley, you should be alarmed and understanding of my concern. You must protect people from the danger of wolves in sheeps clothing as the call of every pastor, and this is God’s directive, not mine. We will all be judged for what we teach or allow to be taught in our sphere of influence about the things of God, so never mind my email.
Know that I am not mad or unforgiving toward anyone at ___________, and please do not assume that or think we keep coming back to things. When a church brings in a speaker, it does make sense that to a large degree, that they support the teaching, which was my cause for concern. I have given you some great links to consider, and put a lot of time into it yesterday for your benefit. I am happy to drop the issue, as I have said everything, do not feel I have more to say on it and am satisfied with your reply.
On a final note, know that I am not against healing! But I am against man trying to be God and exalting himself to that level.