It wasn’t that he exactly lied. It was that in many cases he shares just enough of the truth to put a lie into the mind

of a person who’s listening to him. When the abuse took place, he was her senior

pastor and it was escalating. It was, you know, went from personal emails to intimate emails to erotic emails. Mike

pressuring this woman, Kim, into not sleeping with her own husband, which shows a a a desire for possession. you

know, you’re mine. You You don’t belong to him. You belong to me. That is a That is a direct assault upon

the marriage. Yes. That’s when Rey got a hold of me and he said, “I I have to defend my

wife.” One woman, Sarah Monk, uh she worked for him. She was a grad. She was like a family member and she loved Mike

like a father. But but then he took it to uh what I would call a darker people saw that they were closer than a

46-year-old uh man of God should be with a 20year-old student. She came there to be

a disciple. She came there to be on fire for God. She left in September of 2002

broken. The only reason we’re talking about this 23 years later is because of the cover up. She was for some reason

rumaging through some of our drawers and found a note I’d written. That is not what happened. It’s highlevel manipulation and lies.

His response to me was quote, “I did hear some crazy reports about 6 weeks ago with some wildly false charges.” So,

right out of the gate, he is lying to me. Oh, it was more than you said. Oh, it was bigger than you said. Oh, it was

worse than you said. Over and over again, even 23 years down the road. to cover up. What you have to do is you

have to victimize victims more. That’s the nature of cover up. It always does that. In order to cover it up, you have to

continue to hurt people, to deceive people, and and it and it becomes this

this web that you cannot get untangled. This video is going to give evidence and examples of Dr. Michael Brown, who I

love and appreciate and who I’ve promoted over the years. evidence and

examples of him participating in cover up, manipulation, and outright lies that continue to harm innocent people and

avoid accountability for his past sins. This didn’t need to happen. It’s not just the past sin issues. It’s the

ongoing cover up that needs to be dealt with. I need to say several things before we get into the evidence, and

you’ll be getting a lot of evidence today on screen and in your ears. Number one, you may have heard bad stuff about

me, Mike Winger. um I have a spirit of accusation or I am the accuser of the brethren um or fill in the blank

Leviathan. Um you can think that but please at least look at the evidence of many witnesses because that is the

biblical standard. 1 Timothy 5:1 19 and 20 tells us not to receive an accusation

against an elder unless it’s brought by two or three witnesses. But the ones who

are persisting in sin, you have to expose them in the presence of all. And there’s a complete breakdown in this

last part of the application of 1 Timothy 5. The frequent thing that goes

on in cover-up culture is you simply don’t receive accusations against leaders. Period. End of story. But when

many witnesses come forward, when evidence or even one witness with corroborating evidence, that’s multiple

witnesses comes forward, it it’s on the leadership in the local community or if

a person has a large online ministry, it’s on the leadership in the online world and their board. if if they

neglect their role, which Michael Brown’s board has been neglecting, his current board is neglecting his role,

it’s on our necks to follow 1 Timothy 5:20 and say, “Okay, we have to let this

rebuke be as big as the ministry.” And so, this video number two, I love and

appreciate Dr. Michael Brown still. Um, his series answering Jewish objections

to Jesus and all the messianic apologetic stuff he’s done is incredible. It is wonderful. um it it it

will continue to bear fruit on into the future and that’s a wonderful thing and I’m happy for that. Um it’s still it’s

still something I consider very important for us to have. His cultural stance for topics that make other people

shake in their boots. Um his boldness in those things has been inspiring and it has been solidly biblical and committed

to Jesus Christ. He himself is inspiring. I used to listen to his podcast all the time and I still would

just feel uplifted when I hear him speak. Um, but there’s another side to Dr. Michael Brown. And people can be

complicated and they can have multiple sides to themselves. And unfortunately, um, this is that other side. Now, some

of you, number three, some of you may want to think, Mike, why aren’t you doing Matthew 18? Well, again, I will say this is a 1 Timothy 5:1 19 and 20

issue, not a Matthew 18 issue. This is not about personal offenses against me. This is about dealing openly with an

open problem that’s persistent and a leader with many witnesses. But Matthew 18 in the culture of cover up always

stops at step two, right? Step one, you go to him alone. Step two, you go to him with a leader or with with another

brother. And then step three, you tell it to the church. That step three never happens with those who constantly quote

Matthew 18 with no knowledge of the actual events. So I’m just saying before you quote Matthew 18, go read it again.

We’re in step three. Step two has happened. Step one has happened. It’s step three now. And four, cover up

culture is worse than you think. It is going on. I’ve been interviewing witnesses for months, talking to people behind the scenes. A number of big

ministries. Um, especially in the charismatic world. It’s not only, not exclusively, but especially in the hyper

charismatic side of things. Cover-up culture is rampant and it’s worse than you think it is. And dealing with

examples of it like this one, even though this is not the worst example, but dealing with these examples will

help to stop it. I think the next generation of leaders is going to see this video and they will be inspired to

make sure this kind of thing can’t happen again. All right, let’s talk about how we got here. Between 2001 and

2002, Michael Brown had inappropriate relationships with two women. One of them, Sarah, was an assistant. She was

19 when this first started happening, and he was in his 40s. And this uh we’ll

go over the details. They did not sleep together. It wasn’t like that, but it was inappropriate. It was wrong. And

you’ll get a bunch of specific examples. Uh the second one was a lady named Kim. At least we’re calling her Kim. She’s a

married woman who was under his spiritual leadership who he had an erotic relationship with. Not exactly an

affair. Um erotic correspondence with and that’s what I would call it. That’s

my understanding of of the terminology that I think is appropriate. You’ll get tons of evidence, tons of details, and

then the abuse and the cover up. And it’s bad stuff. Now, what happened between these two women and Brown and

the people around them at the time could have been recovered from 23 years ago, but it was never properly dealt with.

Essential details remained hidden, even from his board and from those who came to talk to him, and he began doing

damage control 23 years ago, and it’s been ongoing ever since. I believe that since these things first happened, Dr.

Brown is engaged in a 23-year long attempt to cover up what happened, adding further injury to those who he previously already hurt, and adding more

people to that list. and he has manipulated or deceived those who came to confront him or ask for accountability or try to find out what

really happened. He did not want this stuff to come out and he still doesn’t and he’s still doing it and he’s only

doing it more than ever before on a larger stage with more accompllices and it’s not okay. Recently his past actions

have come to light because last year uh a Royy’s report article went out where multiple witnesses came forward and then

they started showing up and their data started showing up elsewhere as well. When I first got involved in it being a

public thing, I was told that they were going to do a third-party investigation. Dr. Brown said that he was going to

submit to it. Do it and submit to it. Hire a third party. Follow their instructions and their conclusions.

Unfortunately, it looking good for Dr. Brown’s ministry and for him didn’t last that long because when the report came

out, Firefly, the investigative team who did the report, their report was rejected, at least significantly

rejected. I’ll highlight just two elements of those things that the board rejected from the Firefly report which

they said they would submit to. The first was the use of the terminology sexually abusive misconduct and you can

see on your screen. This was a terminology that they applied to uh Dr. Brown’s relationship with Sarah, the the

teenage teenage girl who was 19 and then 20 throughout the course of their interactions that were inappropriate.

And they rejected that. The Elder Accountability Team says, “No, we we don’t want to use that terminology. We

reject that. We’re going to call it leadership misconduct.” Which a lot of people, including those who who were

close to the situation, thought was um misleading and going back on their word.

The other thing that they rejected, the second thing is the and this is a big deal, the consistent pattern of

oppression, of misleading and deception that Dr. Brown was found to be part of.

I’ll read read to you now from the Firefly report. It is believed that over the past 25 years, Brown has

deliberately deflected questions about allegations of sexual misconduct. This pattern of deflection appears to be

a calculated effort to evade accountability, suppress the allegations, and protect his ministry’s

reputation. By maintaining silence and avoiding direct answers, Brown has seemingly sought to shield himself from

scrutiny, potentially enabling these stories to remain hidden and preserving his position within the ministry. This

is part of what came out of the actual investigation itself. But Dr. Brown’s elder accountability team, his basically

his guys, right? His guys, they get the report from Firefly. They reject this as well, and they say instead the

following. It appears clear to the Elder Accountability team, those are Dr. Brown’s guys that throughout this

process dating back 23 years, Dr. Brown has been repeatedly questioned about these two situations and has answered

his interrogators consistently with honesty and remorse.

That is not what the Firefly report concluded and it is not the evidence that the Firefi Fire Firefly report

gave. And I’m going to demonstrate that in today’s video as well. If they would have simply submitted to Fireflyy’s

report, I would not be making this video. If at any point in the future Dr. Brown comes out and openly deals with the issues. Honestly, I’ll be happy to

delete this video. I’d much rather it not be here. Um, it is also not monetized. I’m not making anything out

of doing this. So, there was the rejection of the investigation that they said they would submit to. There was the

fact that they were pushing against tons of evidence and there’s a there’s an ongoing pattern of manipulation. I will demonstrate several lies from Dr. Brown,

many lies from Dr. Brown in this video. I’m sorry to do this. It hurts you. Many of you out there hurts you. Uh, it it

hurts me too. Not to make myself like wo is me. I’m just saying I feel the same way.

But then it got worse. Um Dr. Brown went on to the Mercy Culture podcast. Uh

Mercy Culture, this is Landon and Heather Shot, their ministry, their church. They have a podcast and they seem to be grabbing uh a number of

people this year who’ve been exposed as seriously problematic individuals and promoting them. And here now we can add

to that um this podcast they did with Dr. Brown. So they bring Dr. Brown onto

their podcast and it was really bad. Gaslighting, manipulation, halftruths, a lot of halftruths, lies, spiritual

abuse, just the worst worst example of coverup culture I think I’ve ever seen

if I’m to to be honest with you guys. And I hate to keep adding more information at the beginning of this video, but there’s going to be a lot.

And there will be timestamps down below. You can bounce around to the specific 10 lies. I think it’s 10 that we ended up with. And uh you can do that. But one of

the reasons why I’m doing this video is because Dr. Brown met with me personally, Mike Winger, at ETSS, that’s the Evangelical Theological Seminary,

uh, conference that I sometimes do go to and I when I can, and

he asked for some time aside, just the two of us, and I granted it because I love the guy and I was like, “Yes, I was

excited to go sit with him for a while.” He shared his defense and he told me the stuff, this stuff before other people

found out. He told me stuff, but it was his version of events and I believed him. I had a couple reservations, but I

basically believed him. I found out later he was misleading me. I believe he was trying to use me to help him produce

cover up to keep things from being exposed and to get me on his team. I I think that’s what he was doing and of

course he doesn’t believe that and argues against that. But I have multiple examples of halftruths and outright lies

that he told me during this time and I’ll share some of them in this video. Thinking that I was somehow brought into

this scenario by Dr. Brown that I’ve promoted him so much in the past and that I am currently on a series of

videos that I believe God would have me do to try to expose abuse and deception

and fraud that is going on in the church. This is not my forever ministry thing, but for a season I’m going to do

this even though I do not like it. I thought I need to do this video on Dr. Brown for that and other reasons we’re

about to explain to you. But joining me today is going to be Ron Caner. Ron Caner, even though he is going to

definitely be demonized by those who are very solidly in the Dr. Brown as being

um falsely accused camp, uh Ron has, from what I’ve seen, consistently been

proven true and honest and just right over and over and over again. When I

fact check, when I go back, when I look at the private conversations I’ve had with Dr. Brown and I look and I see this

and I confirm with other witnesses, over and over again, he’s been proven true. whereas Dr. Brown is proven false. So,

I’ve invited him on today because he’s like the foremost representative of the eyewitnesses on this topic and he knows

the situation like the back of his hand. I still love and appreciate Dr. Michael Brown. I think highly of his gifts and I

treasure his contributions to Jewish apologetics and cultural holiness. But there is, I believe, another side to him

that is running unchecked that it comes out especially when the threat of the

truth coming out is present. It’s a side that participates in coverup culture and

refuses biblical accountability while feigning holiness. And I think that um

Dr. Brown behind the scenes has been part of the reason why cover-up culture uh continues to exist. He’s not the sole

reason. He’s not the core of it, but part of the reason his behavior is why cover-up culture is running rampant in

the charismatic world. This video is dedicated to those who’ve had no voice and have been gaslit, manipulated, lied

to, or lied about by Dr. Michael Brown. And if he repents in the future, this

this video is dedicated to that future Dr. Michael Brown. Yes, I have already confronted him as have many others. This

is the final step where we tell it to the church. So, let me play my interview

with Dr. Ron Caner on 10 lies from Dr. Michael Brown.

Ron, I’m grateful for you meeting with me and doing this video. I know this is unpleasant for both of us. uh we neither

of us really wants to do this and when I first reached out you you actually weren’t going to do it. That was your initial response was that you were kind

of done with this but you’ve changed your mind. I just want you to explain to set the stage. Um here’s our disclaimers. They’re very important that

we share this stuff. Uh why didn’t you want to make this video? Well, you know, we you and I think

started talking in March, April. Um and we talked about doing something

together. Uh and and then I I had made a commitment that I wasn’t going to do any videos about this subject uh until after

the Firefly investigation. And then I did I did one with Wake Up and Win with Minor Profits, Julie Royce, a few

others. I can’t remember. Um uh and uh and and I felt I I began to see very

quickly I’m telling the whole story and it’s a it’s an uncomfortable story to tell. It’s about somebody who’s very dear to me to this day. I pray for him

every single day. It’s for for his wife as well. So it is um I just felt

uncomfortable telling the whole story over and over again. And so uh in early

May I decided all right I I think I’m done with I felt in my soul that th this

is done. This chapter is over. I’m moving on with my life. And um and

that’s when the Heathersh shot video came out interview three and a half hours. I got to tell just for people to

know this, I I got to say that this was this was um the one big response video

that uh Dr. Michael Brown did to all these things. And it was in all honesty, I believe it was agregious. It was so

bad. It was it was like every tool in the book for gaslighting, misleading,

and and victim blaming, and all this stuff. And it’s it’s not that nothing in

it was true, but there was so much in it that was misleading. But today we will be uncovering the big lies told as we

share Dr. Brown’s story. Dr. Michael Brown said to me, he said, “Heather and Landon, go and ask the Lord if I am

lying. Go and ask him if I’m not trustworthy and whatever you hear from the Lord and decide, I will be okay

with.” Because he knows that we seek God and his voice in everything. We hear his

voice. We know his voice. We obey his voice. We did. And Dr. Michael Brown, we

stand with you. And I also believe that this is unseeding demonic principalities

and attacks against the body of Christ to divide when I believe we are in a

pivotal hour to prepare the body of Christ for the return of Jesus. So there was a plot. In other words, it

wasn’t just someone with a grievance because they just get to come to me. Our doors always been open and fully

accessible. There was an actual plot. People began and it was the same thing. I got an anonymous call. I can’t tell you from who saying this happened, this

happened. So spreading all these lies and rumors, but that that’s when it started September of of last year.

Many of these people that are making these statements have affairs in the last 5 and 10 years.

How about horrific? How about pornography? Pornography asking for someone to be

physically raped and abused to their amusement. Right? what you’re sharing right now if

you are a Christian to act like you don’t understand this at all. Well, even even beyond ridiculous it is

ridiculous. It’s insincere. I don’t believe you. Frankly, I don’t I don’t I don’t believe you when you say that this

is offensive to you. I think that moral purity right now is the spirit of the mob. It’s popular. So, when you get on

the internet and say, “I’m going to make this video and I know it’s not going to be popular.” when you know precisely that it is popular and that’s the reason

you’re making the video is because it’s going to get the likes, the comments, and the shares and the follows and you can and you can monetize it. So, I just

want to look in the camera and say, “I don’t believe you.” Who are they restoring? Oh, no. They’re not restoring

anybody. They’re just here to tear down using and abusing the name of Jesus

Christ to build their own following. It’s literal idolatry. they fight themselves

that it it stirred this stuff back up even for me because I I was just waiting for the dust to settle to figure out

what really happened here and then my plates’s really full with other stuff. The last thing I wanted to do was a video on Michael Brown who I’ve always

really respected and appreciated. Um but uh but yeah, so you saw that and that

that changed things for you. For all the reasons that you just so eloquently stated that it there had to

be a response. Number one, they took two clips of me. It’s it’s it’s comical, but

they took two clips of me and played them completely out of context, which which showed me that there was some real

dishonesty there. If they had just showed it in the full context, I I would have been thrilled. Uh and um and I had

to respond to that because it reflected on Sarah. They were saying that Sarah was brainwashed, that that she she was

fine until others got to her, which is simply not true. And we’ll get into that. So, I I just felt like, okay, I

didn’t I thought I was done, but I guess I’m not. In fact, a friend of mine, a mutual friend called uh a mutual friend

and said, “Is how much longer is Ron going to make these videos?” And I told

my friend, “You tell him that I I’m done. I don’t want to make these videos.

I was done a month ago. It it it’s if as long as these lies continue, I will

continue to confront them. I I feel a responsibility particularly for people that I now know as friends uh that if

you’re going to lie about them, I’m going to confront that lie. But but Mike had been quiet, you know, since that

time. You know, I don’t know if that message was delivered to him and he he he made a calculation that it’s better just to be quiet about this. And I hope

so because it is better at this point. But then last week, the day after we

talked and I told you that I really wasn’t comfortable. Um, he posted a or I

noticed it the day afterwards, he posted a uh teaching that he did where he

talked about being contrite, how the Lord revives the contrite. He used

himself as an example of somebody, I assume, who is now contrite after going through a a deep trial. So he referred

to the past seven, eight months as a trial, not the consequences of of bad

behavior, but a difficult trial that he went the the worst trial of his life.

And it was misleading. It was gaslighting anybody who had listened as opposed to saying, you know what, I was

credibly accused of sexually abusive misconduct with one uh uh with a 20-year-old staffer when I was 46. And

there was another situation where I found myself in a verbal erotic relationship uh with with someone that I

knew, a married woman. Um and and because of that, I’ve gone through a really difficult time these past seven

months. That would have been honest. So that is spin and it’s and it’s gaslighting and it’s wrong. So I talked

to you the next morning and I said, “Okay, let’s I guess we should uh let’s do let’s do what you know, for me. I

hope this is the final word, you know, regarding Dr. Dr. Michael Brown and and me commenting on it.

Yeah. And for for my own sake, I think that this is important because of there’s this is I want to show that

there’s a real coverup culture going on. Um and it and it’s it’s not that it only exists inside charismatic circles cuz

that’s certainly not true, but it exists very strongly inside caris charismatic circles for some reason. And the best

way I think to show people and then help change it is to just give some examples.

Here you go. Here’s one. Here’s one high-profile examples of cover-up culture. And so there’s two different issues with Dr. Brown. There’s one, the

issue of what happened many, many years ago that could have at this stage easily

been resolved and recovered from and move on. Um, and then there’s the

ongoing cover up. Uh, that to cover up, what you have to do is you have to

victimize victims more. That’s the nature of cover up. It always does that. And so there’s that continued ongoing

stuff. And so today we’re going to be talking about um a number of like 10 we’re going to focus on 10 10 lies from

Dr. Michael Brown. I hate to even say this even coming out of my mouth, but we’re going to focus on those things because I think that’s what they are.

But I want us to first start by saying this. Um what are we not accusing Michael Brown of? Because one of the

responses of course is that he’s he’s been accused of being a pedophile, of being all these different things. and

this is thrown out as like a way of defeating valid accusations or valid claims. So,

what are we not accusing him of? Just to clear the air. Well, certainly not that. Um, you know, there’s no uh evidence whatsoever of

pedophilia. Um, and and we’re not there’s no evidence of him being a

lifelong groomer. Um, as far as we know, these are two incidents that happened 23

years ago, and there’s nobody who’s come forward before or after. So, we’re not

saying that he’s living uh the only reason we’re talking about this 23 years later is because of the cover up. And,

you know, some people say the cover up is worse than the crime. And and if you’re a victim, then then that’s

certainly not the case. But when people say that, they mean that in order to cover it up, you you said it well a

minute ago, Mike, you have to continue to hurt people, to deceive people, and

and it and it becomes this this web that you cannot get untangled. So, we’re not

saying that that that Mike Brown is currently uh living a deviant life, and and I trust that he’s not. Um and we’re

also saying that Mike has been a great value to the body of believers. I so

much of who I am today is a result of his input into my life. Um so much of uh

just my own pursuit in in academics, you know, was largely, you know, because of him and his encouragement. So, you know,

I love Mike. I care for Mike and I’m pray praying for him every day that he just comes fully in this light and just

deals with this in a full way so that he can move on with what I believe would be

a clear conscience. Yeah, that it’s it’s the cover up. It’s the continually digging the hole deeper and deeper that

has happened and continues to happen. It seems even right, you know, everything

that’s happened basically has been part of that um even recently. And u we do need to deal with that. We’re not

accusing him of having some like herum. We’re not accusing him of other sorts of things. That is not the case. Actually,

the my biggest issue, the reason why I’m going to bring this up is because it’s not an old dead past issue. It is an

ongoing issue of cover up of an old issue and that makes it an ongoing issue

and so it should be addressed and it’s part of the same pattern of behaviors that I’ve seen in so many other groups.

This is why there is not there wasn’t accountability for Mike Bickl until social media started making it happen.

This is why there wasn’t accountability for Shawn BS until social media started forcing it to happen. And you could keep

going down the list of guys who still don’t have accountability because it just hasn’t gotten public enough yet.

And yeah, well, many of these guys are submitted not to New Testament elders and they’re not necessarily part of a a

regular New Testament congregation where they fellowship and eat pizza together and do it, you know, prayer meetings.

They they are on a ministry circuit and and their only accountability is to a board and that board could be their

friends. It could be family members. It could be a combination of both. uh but it’s typically people who are not

willing to hold them accountable unless there is incredible pressure coming from the outside. So for those

who decry the use of social media, I agree it’s not ideal. It’s not God’s

primary way. It is a you know his primary way is through New Testament elders who are concerned about truth.

But you have these these boards who may in some boards you might even have unbelievers. So how are they going to

judge a minister according to the standards you know in the Bible? So I

believe that God is using social media podcasters etc in in this moment. Uh but

I I pray that one day it would be the rightly appointed group New Testament

elders. Right. I agree with that. And and there’s plenty of the social media stuff that’s garbage and that’s just just

people seeking their their own carnal motives or wanting to just titate the ears or whatever. But there’s plenty of

that. But there is also a properness to saying um accountability will not come

through the proper means. Let’s let’s go to the people and let’s try and see if we can create it. And that that can be a

very positive thing. And I don’t I don’t think Mike Bickl ever would have been found out if it wasn’t for that. I don’t think he ever would have. And I think

anybody who denies that is probably just part of cover-up culture and they’re worried about it being taken away from them. It’s, you know, when you just have

your f powerful friends with mutual interests and they’re the only people that can hold you accountable.

You don’t have like for me the elders at my church don’t benefit from my ministry

in some direct fashion. You know what I mean? Like they would call me out. like if they knew I was in an adulterous

affair, they would call me out and I think they’d issue a public statement if I, you know, if they felt like they should to to tell everybody, I need to

be I need to be pushed out of this ministry. And um that that’s a healthy thing that’s in my local body that that

exists. But if if you don’t have that happening, then what are you going to do? So, okay, we’re we’re probably

getting in the weeds a little bit. Um can we back up? Can you just back up and give me like a big picture? And oh, I

want to mention before we get into that, um, I also have appreciated Michael Brown. I have defended Michael Brown. I’ve lost subscribers and followers,

which I’m okay with because I was in defense of Michael Brown. I bring him on. I recommended his books, did an

interview with him, and I knew doing it that I was going to be sparking controversy and giving myself headaches.

And I was okay with that because I really appreciated his contribution, especially to answer answering Jewish

objections to Jesus. That series was, I thought, really, really useful and helpful and unique.

and um still like it actually. But um but this is this is because I was also

brought into and involved in some of the cover up when he met with me back in November of last year. And he shared

some stuff with me that was not true. And I’m I’m going to hold him accountable for that publicly because this has to do with revictimizing

someone who was already hurt in the past. And um I’m not I’m not getting sucked into that coverup stuff. So, um,

this will also cost me on the other end, but but I’m doing this because, at least in my opinion, um, it’s the right thing

to do, especially because I was personally brought in. And if I don’t do this video about Mike Brown, even though

I’ve um, promoted him elsewhere, I think that that is me playing favorites at

that point, right? Being dishonest. So, so yeah, we’re going to share this stuff and we hope

that it ends up in the long run being bring bringing benefit to him. Um, but

whether it does or not, I think it will bring benefit to the body if we can try to graciously recognize when coverup

culture is happening and try to help put a stop to it. And that means being honest about what’s going on. So,

anybody who’s going to shame you or me or these witnesses for coming forward and sharing truth, I think you are you

are on the wrong side. using phrases like accuser of the brethren. That is,

you know, Satan knows how to say that, too. One of Satan’s favorite phrases is

accuser. Don’t be an accuser of the brethren. He loves that phrase. So, let’s just be wise and biblical and say,

“Oh, no.” The scripture says that the elder who is sinning, you you rebuke in the presence of all that the rest also

may fear. that this sense of insecurity people feel because these videos I’ve been making or that you’ve made and

they’re like well I don’t feel safe now with you Ron or with you Mike I don’t feel safe because what if you expose me and I want to respond and say yes while

it’s not my job to expose everybody it is proper that you don’t feel safe I should not feel safe Ron should not feel

safe because there are standards that we are externally required to hold to as

Christians especially leaders who should be judged more strictly so um anyway that being

Ron, if you could, man, what’s what is like the telescopic from a million miles

away just glancing at everything that’s happened. Can you give us like an overview? Because this is sort of a

post-mortem at this point. It’s uh it’s important that you understand the background. I didn’t show up out of nowhere and say, “I’m going to

publicly uh you know, expose uh Dr. Michael Brown.” We’ve known each other

since 1984 and we’ve been friends most of that time. Was it 40 years? Um we

were together at the Brownsville Revival and um Mike is a dynamic minister, a

dynamic personality. And at the end of the the the time at the revival uh he

was let go and there was a split. And um we we did have a falling out at that

time that lasted for about eight years. And then we reconciled. And when we reconciled, we reconciled fully. I mean,

we went on vacation like within within months. Um, it was like nothing ever happened. And it was beautiful and

wonderful. Um, you know, some people have wondered if I’ve have some sort of obsession with with Mike wanting to

bring God forbid, God forbid, you know, if I fear the Lord that I would I would

purposely torpedo somebody who’s probably the greatest Messianic Jewish

apologist in the world. Um, you know, like you mentioned earlier, his his uh

answering Jewish objection series. So, God forbid that I would ever be a part of anything like that. Um, I have loved

Mike. You know, in 2018, he was attacked by a conservative minister in Israel and

labeled a false prophet publicly. Nobody went after that guy like I did, trying

to get him to repent. First of all, I don’t think you can declare somebody a false prophet by yourself. There needs to be a counsel and consideration. It

was over something that that Mike has written a lot about that happened in 1988. And um I was I was livid and I

went to his employer and they made a statement distancing themselves. But it just shows how much I loved him and just

a year ago uh in June he was in Israel and I took him down to the south to the

areas that were affected. October 7th we did some filming together. I took him out to lunch. We had a great day

together. And then it was a few months after that in October that um you know I’m I’m emailing him back and forth over

something that happened. Somebody attacked both of us online and I I just sent him a little quip like it’s you

know it’s a joy you know to be brothers in this thing together. I loved Mike Brown. The idea that I’ve been waiting

for an opportunity to hurt him is if it’s true then I’m a sick person. Um I

can you judge for yourself. I love the Lord and I love Mike. Uh but there are

certain things that we can’t do and we can’t cover up from Jerusalem with special interviews today with one of my

dearest friends in the world, Ron Caner. We’ve known each other since 1984. My

friend Ron Caner in Israel in our history, Ron, we go we go back to 1984.

Is that right? Yes. Speaking to my good friend, my dear friend for decades, Ron Caner.

And Ron, if I can, let me just say real quick for those who are thinking that about you. Um, consider the following is

that what we’re about to bring is evidence and multiple testimonies to try to establish facts. That’s what

persuaded me to go forward on this. Evidence and multiple testimonies. The accusation that Ron is just going after

Mike because of personal issues. you have no evidence at all and you are

basically creating a policy where you will ignore evidence and testimonies and just attack a person because

you’re picking a side or something like that which is which is partiality very thing that we’re told not to do. So, um,

that being said, um, in all honesty, Ron, even if you were just acts to grind, it doesn’t mean that what you’re

saying is not true, right? And we still have to handle these facts and deal with them. And and it’s become a talking point and

a narrative. And what what I have noticed over the last seven months is there are certain narratives and talking

points that are repeated uh by Dr. Brown and and those close to him that are

repeated uh for a reason, such as the the recent ones we saw. a few uh maybe

two months ago now where Raleigh Washington, his his new spokesman, said that uh that I my influence in Sarah’s

life, she was one of the victims. Uh I made it 10 times worse uh than than what

Mike really did to her. I some I somehow sinisterly came in and said, “Hey,

Sarah, let’s you know, maybe this happened. Maybe that. It’s just absurd.”

And of course, we never heard back from Raleigh. I think he was the he may have been a one-time spokesman. Um

well, he I’ll tell you later, he ghosted me as well. He was supposed to be he was supposed to be my point guy to help. I tried to

clear this stuff up, you know, privately and he was supposed to be the point guy and he it didn’t work out well. Um yeah,

I think he may have resigned. I I again, we haven’t heard his name other than that one time in the Roy report, I

think. Okay. Um it it wasn’t a good week, I don’t think, for him. Uh and and and rightly

so. People don’t like being told that they’ve that that they’ve been brainwashed, that they’ve been manipulated. That is gaslighting. Uh so

go going back to October now. So it’s not October. It’s October 2024. Mike and I are very close friends. He’s a mentor.

Uh I look up to him, but we’re we’re buddies now. You know, I’m getting ready to turn 60. He’s getting ready to turn

70. And I have a friend uh former student. I wouldn’t even I wouldn’t call

him a friend at the time, somebody I knew who gets in touch with me. I just gotten home from Jerusalem. I live in

Israel and I just gotten home from a prayer meeting and was checking my uh

messenger and there’s a note from this guy and he says, “I just wanted you to be aware that Mike Brown is being investigated for two uh situations of

sexual sin.” And when I read that, I I I don’t have words to describe the

inner turmoil that I almost fell out of my chair. I was like, “What? What? No.

It’s like when your favorite sport team loses and you keep playing back in your head how No, they didn’t really lose.

But but they did. But this is far worse than that because it people’s lives are extinct. I just couldn’t believe it. No,

no, this not Mike. So I talked to this guy about an hour later and he went

through much of the details and uh I said, “All right, I have to I have to

contact Mike.” So I was stunned for for three days. As I walked around my my uh apartment in Israel, literally I I

didn’t talk. I my wife, she looked at me, I I couldn’t make words. I was just so shocked because Mike uh Mike has a

message called a which is a Hebrew word that means the final end. It’s a message

he preached over and over again and it’s a powerful message and he preaches it at the end of the

IHOP message and it it’s a warning that if you knew a means your final end you

see it all through Proverbs uh that if this person knew their final end they wouldn’t have done it in the beginning

like a drug drug addict if he could see himself dying in the streets you know begging for money he would not have

taken that first hit only could have seen the only could have seen everything stripped ripped away. Friends that have

walked with God for years, ministers of the gospel. It takes a long time to climb up that mountain. Takes a long

time to climb up that place where people respect you and you have a reputation for integrity and honor and

trustworthiness. But you can fall from that mountain in one minute. You can open the door, open the door,

open the door, open the door, open the door, and then take one step and you’re through it. I just I mean Mike was so strong with

that message that and disciplined I just I just couldn’t fathom that these were true. So I got a hold of him uh about 3

days later and I said Mike I am dreading. And by the way all these emails can be read what I wrote his

responses to me. I brought two more people Matthew 18 in brown report brownwitnessreport.com.

I reached out to Mike and I said, “Uh, Mike, this is an email I don’t want to write you. I’m dreading, but you’re my

friend and I don’t know if you know, but you’re being investigated and and I want you to know.” And so, uh, I won’t tell

you tell you what he said then because we’re going to get into that later. Um, but that led to a series of

conversations throughout the weekend where I then confronted very specific things that I was told uh between two

women 23 years ago. And and I came to find out that these this had been

confronted at least 10 different times over the past 23 years. But Mike had

evaded responsibility. I didn’t realize that I was number 10 or 11 in in in secession. So by the end of the weekend

he he had found out about this. He told me 6 weeks earlier and that weekend I I

was coming into the states from Israel and I said, “Well, let’s just let’s talk when I get there.” Um we did talk

briefly. He told me a little bit more that there was a girl or a woman uh 20 years old that was like a daughter to

him and he acted foolishly. That that was pretty much what he told me. and he

sat down with his board that weekend and told them, but he didn’t tell them everything. He left out the other

situation. So, there were two situations and I’ll give you the very uh very short version and then we can open it up. So,

with one woman, Sarah Monk, uh she worked for him. She was a grad. She was like a family member and she loved Mike

like a father. But, but then he took it to uh what I would call a darker, more physical place where there was

handholding. Uh there was uh kissing on the forehead at least. Uh again, I’ll

tell you what I found out that weekend from him, handholding, kissing on the forehead, smacking her on her butt from

time to time, and then meeting late at night at Walmart, uh just the two of them. And and for us in the Brownsville

revival, the idea of a married man doing anything alone with an unmarried woman

was just that was grounds for getting kicked out of school. You just never do anything like that. So, as he confessed

this and by by that stage, we’re in the second phase of what I would call Matthew 18. I I confronted him

privately. Um, I heard his denial and then I brought two guys with me and I

said, “Mike, here’s specifically what I heard.” And then he confessed probably

to about 65 70% of what was being accused. And the next day, I wrote him

back and I said, “Mike, listen. I I understand that you think you acted foolishly and this was not really. And

with the other woman, by the way, he said that there was a sinful soul tie. Uh but there was no real description of

what that meant. We now know after the investigation that it was a verbal um a

textual email and then phone erotic relationship uh that that progressed

over many months until it it it got to a place that was quite unclean. And according to Ry the husband, that

included uh Mike pressuring this woman, Kim, into not sleeping with her own

husband, which shows a a a desire for possession. You know, you’re mine. You

you don’t belong to him. You belong to me. That is a that is a direct assault upon the marriage.

Yes. And he pressured Kim to meet her meet him in a public place. When I say

public, I mean outside the home privately. and and she would not do those things. Uh and and so I didn’t

know all those details on that day, but just based on what I knew is that he out of his mouth a sinful soul tie um with

with Kim and with uh the single woman Sarah, 20 years old, uh there was uh a

touching of her butt, kissing on the head, holding her hand in front of a bunch of

other students and proclaiming that this is my, you know, Sarah’s like a daughter to me. That’s why I can hold her hand.

And then he continued to hold her hand in a car with with students watching for several minutes. It was uh unsettling to

the students who were in the car. Um and then meeting late at night at Walmart. So the next day I I wrote him Mike with

two others as witnesses and I said, “Mike, I understand that you think these are not that big of a deal.” I said,

“But they’re actually a big deal and I know it happened 23 years ago. Uh but this would be considered abuse.

Certainly sexual harassment, touching uh somebody who works for you touching their rear end on a regular basis. Um

you you can’t do that and then deal with it on your own. And so I I was so gentle. I said, “Mike, you you should

have confessed this to your elders.” He was the senior leader of a team of elders. I said, “You should have

confessed this to them 23 years ago and submitted to whatever discipline and restoration.” And it’s it wouldn’t have

been a careerending sin. It it is sin. Let’s not make any mistake, but you

could have been restored. And I said, “But now your only hope really is to to submit this aresh to a

team of elders who can adjudicate it and I’ll help you. I I’ll walk with you through the process.” And and he was not

interested in that. And so we kind of broke off contact after that because I

was not interested in continuing the conversation if he was not willing to deal with it honestly. So, it wasn’t

long after that that I felt it was now my duty to find out what happened. So, I

got in touch with the the young girl, Sarah. Kim had passed away uh and and I didn’t have any idea that her husband

Ray wanted to speak with me. So I through a mutual friend I was put in

touch with Sarah and she told me a story that was much more severe uh which included um not just uh uh kissing on

the forehead but kissing on the cheek and kissing on the lips just a peck but it was it was regular. It was something

they would do at the end of the day. It was something they would do when they went after their grocery store visits.

Um uh in addition to that, not only did he hold her hand,

uh publicly once, but then and and there’s a clear escalation, you know, which I mean, I’m sorry that that that

would be grooming, you know, you do you test the waters here. And it was without her consent. He didn’t take her hand and

you know, do you mind if I do this in front of other people? But he took her hand and um and then continued to hold

it. Yeah. He’s the spiritual leader. He’s the one that she’s looking to to provide wisdom, discernment, and in all honesty,

set the boundaries of the relationship. And so, he’s pushing those boundaries and pushing those boundaries. And it’s

it is escalating. This has been, we’ll talk about this later, but this is a pattern where he would minimize the

nature of the relationship with people he talked to, and then you’d find out from Sarah was it was actually more, it

was actually worse than that. Or with an eyewitness uh like Chris who would say, I I watched and he tells us it was

actually this, not that. And then you you keep finding this out over and over again. And it happened so many times to

find out, oh, it was more than you said. Oh, it was bigger than you said. Oh, it was worse than you said. Over and over

again, even 23 years down the road. Yeah. Yeah. And so, you know, you you listening at home, Mike just mentioned

Chris. That’s Chris Bennett. And he comes into the story because he was in the car and saw the handholding thing.

But we’ll we’ll his story will come out later. You might want to write down some of these names so you don’t get confused. Yeah, we’re mostly interested

in these these these two girls, Sarah and Kim. Sarah was the student who he some would say groomed. I would at least

say he’s pushing boundaries and he’s creating a relationship that is unhealthy, inappropriate and and leading

into very dangerous places. In fact, it seems already to be in a place. Then there’s then there’s uh Kim who is the

woman who he has a erotic correspondence with erotic talking and and however you

know whatever forms that took written or or verbal and and and the reason we know about that

it’s really interesting because if not for this one thing I’m going to

tell you right now nobody would ever know because they wanted to keep this tight shut. The one outside person who

knew about it was sworn to secrecy according to the Firefly report. He was not even allowed to tell his wife. And

um this is from Mike and Nancy Brown. So, uh whatever happened between Kim and

Mike, apparently Mike wrote down, uh on a legal pad, uh a bunch of fantasies

that the two of them had of each other. Now, I want to be clear. I don’t know if Kim ever said those things or not. I

just know that it was in his handwriting that he wrote it down. So, I don’t want to throw her under the bus. I don’t know

what she did or didn’t do. What I know is what he’s confessed to. And I know that on a legal pad, he wrote down these

fantasies. Now, I only know that is because later, I believe it was in July, so 6 months later, um after that

relationship ends, uh the relationship he had with Kim was I I think it was the latter part of 2001. Uh and it was

escalating. It was, you know, went from personal emails to intimate emails to

erotic emails. And and I I can’t give you all the timelines, but I know that it ended in early 2002. And so

6 months later or so, July, Sarah is housesitting at the Brown’s house uh for

they’re out of town. They housesitting the dog, and they tell her to sleep in their bedroom, which she does. Now Sarah

used to leave notes and this is another thing that was quite egregious from the the Heathershot interview. Mike kept he

more than once he talked about Sarah rumaging through their drawers. Been housesitting for us which he did a

couple of times cuz we had this little dog. N and I were away and uh she was for some reason rumaging through some of

our drawers and found a note I’d written. Somehow Sarah was rumaging through our our drawers, found that

that is not what happened. And that’s that’s just not nice to say cuz it puts an image of somebody who’s snooping. But

the fact of the matter is is that Mike and Sarah, just to show you how unhealthy the relationship was, used to

leave notes for each other. Now, how strange would that be if there was a single woman out there that that even if

my wife knew about it? But if she didn’t know about it, e even worse, you know, we’re always leaving little notes

hiding. You know, Mike would reach in his pocket. Oh, there’s a note. So, she’d put it in in his Bible. And so,

she writes a note to him and puts it in the nightstand. When she

opens the nightstand, she sees the yellow pad that he in his handwriting. That’s how she finds out about the the

the the fantasies between the two of them, or at least what Mike wrote down. So, if she doesn’t open that drawer,

we’re not talking about this today. So, she finds it and she’s devastated. Um, I

mean, it’s shocking because even though Mike is pushing the boundaries with her, she doesn’t yet fully understand that

this is unclean what he’s doing. But then she reads this and she’s like, “Oh my goodness, I’m I can’t I don’t want to

put words in her mouth, but I think she said something like, “I’m not the only one.” And this is this is clear, you

know, erotic speech. So, she goes and confronts Mike with this uh not long

after that. And he brings in his wife Nancy. And according to Sarah, what she

told me and what she told Chris Bennett, remember that name, Chris Bennett, in 2020, same story, she said that Mike and

Nancy sat her down. And they said, “We’re glad that you found these notes because now Mike can repent to you and

you can represent the entire student body and you forgiving Mike is like the student body forgiving Mike.” And you

know, which this is this is part of the coverup culture thing. It’s like where did this where did this weird rule come

from? You’re going to random student. You’re going to represent everybody.

What? The only reason to say this is so that he doesn’t have to have accountability for it. I get it. I don’t

want accountability either. I just have to have it anyways. That’s just how it works. Nobody wants accountability. Like

none of us do. Once once you’re busted, you don’t want it. But but it it it has

to happen whether you enjoy it or like it or not. And yeah, this is this is an example of the cover up thing is the one

thing that’s been consistent throughout the entirety of this entire thing. It’s still ongoing. Even in my interactions

with with with Mike Brown, um it’s it’s been the same thing. It’s been just continual cover up, cover up, cover up,

spin, spin, spin, halftruths, misleading information. It’s been, you know, we’ll

give several examples today, a bunch of them. So, it’s um Anyways, I just want to help affirm that because I know that

some people watching will not realize instantly how problematic that was. It might sound romantic. You’re going to

you’re going to forgive me on behalf of the student body. No. No, that’s not okay.

No, it’s not. It’s severe manipulation. And I mean, she’s 20 years old. They’re in their 40s. She now is really confused

and and upset and she decides that she needs to get out of there. And and let me make this point. She was brought into

Mike Brown’s inner circle and she was she felt honored. She she like you’re in

the middle of a historic revival. The Brownsville revival lasted for 5 years. 2 million people visited. It was

beautiful and it was powerful. and and she gets to hang out with one of the primary leaders of the revival, be be

close to his family, and then it turns weird. So, she came there to be a disciple. She came there to be on fire

for God. She left in September of 22 uh uh 2002 broken, backsliden, leaving God.

And that’s also written in what she wrote. So, what happens is that as she leaves, people begin to get concerned

like where did Sarah go? She’s disappeared. And so there that that began some of the the rumors because

people saw them. People saw the handholding. People saw that they were closer than a 46-year-old

uh man of God should be with a 20year-old student. So there were many people within that community that that

they didn’t get it. They didn’t understand uh and they had concerns. So that began a series of confrontations

that we can get into later. So she left Pensacola confused, angry, hurt. Right before she left, this is a a big piece

of evidence. Uh she called up Mike and and she’s angry and she’s upset and she tells him off and she says, “I know what

you did to me. The kissing on my lips, the you know, smacking my butt. I I know it was wrong. Uh you know, meeting you

late at night at Walmart. I know that that was not right.” And what she did not know is that her sister was

listening. Now, at that point, her sister would go on to say later is that we we once you started hanging out with

Mike Brown and Mike and Nancy Brown, we never saw you anymore. you know, that became your life. You got sucked into that and and then, you know, you just

disappeared and went to Texas. Um, but she said she overheard that phone call.

She told her parents that night uh that she overheard that phone call and she’s written down. She testified to the

firefight report. So, that is evidence. Uh she couldn’t hear Mike on the other line, but it did not appear to her that

he was denying anything. So, she moves away and then others become concerned.

And so, these confrontations begin. We we’ll get those in get into those later. But that is the issue we’re talking

about. A story of two different women. Sarah Monk who’s 20 years old enthralled

with her leader just amazed that she’s in the inner circle and it ends up being a not a sexual you know in the bed but

what I would call a very romantic intimate relationship with Mike. And then there is Kim which was a a sexual

relationship. It just wasn’t physical. And in terms of the timeline, from everything I can understand, the

relationship with Kim would have Kim would have been the latter part, probably the last half of 2001. It may

have started before that and and but at what time it became erotic, I don’t know. And with uh Sarah, it seems that

it started in around May 2002 and ended when she left Pensacola in September

2002. So they happened one right after the other.

to catch people up where we’re at now and what we’re about to do. We’re going to go through I asked Ron, hey, let’s

let’s just find specific examples that cut through the through the noise that show that there’s a pattern of deception

going on with with Michael Brown dealing with this stuff. And so, we have these like 10 lies that he’s uh that you’ve

you’ve outlined. We’re going to walk through them and go through them in detail. Now the reason how these came up is because um as by now in the video I

should have already summarized this but as I’ve said there’s what happened 23 years ago. Then there is uh the pattern

of cover up and it culminated this just the end of last year and this year when

things went public they eventually agreed to do this third party investigation and to publish the results and to submit to the results of the

investigation. That didn’t really happen. The elder board in response to the investigation

that goes public, they they then offer their interpretation of the investigation and their in a sense their judgment and rejection of elements of

it. While they say they didn’t reject it, but they did in reality, they they reject specific claims, specific

findings that seem highly evidenced, and they reject the term sexually abusive misconduct and just call it leadership

misconduct. So, this is what I start seeing is cover up and spin control because it wasn’t justified what they

did. It was also going back on I think going back on their word that they were going to submit to this thing. Then we

have all this data. We have Michael Brown then starting to defend himself finally with this uh with this video he

did with Land and the the shots Mercy Culture who seem like they defend anybody who has enough of a following.

It’s it’s crazy. They defending Todd White and defending uh is it Shawn Bulls now too? Anyway, they’re just defending

whoever they have to. And this is where we’re going to try to cut through and draw specific examples from all of this

pool of data. Lots and lots of witnesses have been gathered. Uh an investigation has been conducted and you’re basically

just agreeing with that investigation. We’re not here presenting some unique singular view that you’ve come up with.

Um so that with that set up, these are going to be like 10 specific examples of

lies and cover-up culture that have gone on around this issue that should be dealt with. And if they hadn’t been if

the lies hadn’t been said, they wouldn’t need to be confronted. We’re just responding to them here, right? And what what we’re showing is

that there is a pattern of lying. So, as we go through this, let me just say that that truth is a really high value with

me. I have a lot of weaknesses in my life. And if you hung out me with me, you would see them. Uh but but truth is

a very high value. And so it’s been disconcerting to see how easily um at

least in my opinion, Mike has been willing to lie to me and to others. So let’s just start with number one.

So uh in his first response to me, uh so remember back in October 2024, I emailed

him and said, “I I I’m dreading doing this, but I have to ask you about these about the what I’ve heard.” And so his

response to me was quote, “I did hear some crazy reports about 6 weeks ago

with some wildly false charges about me that allegedly were about to come out in

an alleged report from Julie.” That would be Julie Royy’s, but they were

completely untrue. So right out of the gate, he is lying to me right at the

very first thing. I mean, that’s that is a clear objective lie because we know that they were not completely untrue.

They were at least partly true. And if he’d said to me, Ron, listen, yeah, I heard two and there is some truth to it.

There’s a there’s some lies to it. You know, let’s talk. That would have been different. But he uses the words

completely untrue and wildly false charges. Yeah. Um as a sweeping statement of the whole

thing, not that Yeah. You could probably come up with something they asked him about that weren’t that wasn’t true

because that’s the way reporting works. Hey, what about this? What about that? The great line works. But but uh but but the report actually

was substantially true. And and neither did he give me any indication that for the past 23 years that different groups

of people have confronted him about this like like he acted like this was all

brand new to him when in fact it was not at all. Um and then he asked me to tell

him exactly what he heard. And you know I’ve learned um you know I’m pretty gullible you know but so I did you know

but I’ve learned that that is a tactic you want to find out before you confess. you don’t want to overconfess. So, this

is what he’s done to other people with Londa Parker when she came to his office back in 2002 about these issues. Uh, you

know, we know what do you think, you know? What have you heard? And so, uh, I he did this with with me in our phone

call uh in a similar fashion of of I was trying to not tell him what I remembered from our conversation and have him tell

me what he remembered, but he wouldn’t let me. He was finally tell me what you remember, Mike. Yeah. And I I found out Mike very

quickly that this that he had lied to me because by that weekend I was asking him specific questions. Um as I learned more

information, uh I can’t remember if I had more information. I was simply terrified. And you have to understand

that when you’re confronting somebody that you love and respect 10 years older than you who’s an intimidating figure,

you don’t just come in like a bull in a china shop. I was very gentle and and and and and felt guilty. Uh but he lied

to me and and I didn’t tell him everything I knew in that first email because I was scared. But on Saturday I

laid it out in a document with me and two other people and I said because he was asking us by that time to defend him

you know can you know what like he was hoping that his friends in fact that’s probably why he was talking to you know

he was looking for people to defend him. I believe that that is the case and I I

share that with him as well. I believe that there so in in November at ETSs last year the conference he pulled me

aside for those who don’t know and asked me if we could talk hey can we make some special time to talk um and in hindsight

the entire flow of the conversation I think I was being set up to be on his side and potentially to help defend him

because he he knew stuff was coming down the line and when I look back at that conversation there’s some specific

things he said to me that were not true some were just misleading and some were just a lie. Um, yeah.

Do you want to bring those up now or or later?

Sure. Um, he told me that Sarah had um gone to and I I I submitted this

to you guys in the report that you put out, which I’ll link down below as well, your which is like how many pages is this? 150 or something?

135, I think. Yeah, 35 pages of of stuff. So my my part of that was to say um he had told

me that Sarah had undergone gone to a counselor and received some kind of

memory recovery therapy and this fabricated memories. So that’s why she was now bringing accusations to him that

he’s like I don’t know where this came from. That never happened. That never happened. And it was all like a lot of

that. And um I can’t recall if he said he heard she went somewhere to a

counselor or if he knew for a fact he went she went and got a counselor. and and did this memory recovery thing. But

he adamantly tells me even now uh still says he never told me that and he never said it to anybody. He says, “I’ve never

said it to you. I didn’t say it to anybody. I’m 100% confident.” 100% confident he said that to me. Um I did

not make this up. Hey guys, Mike. I’m cutting in here again with the edit. I want to share something now that I

wasn’t sure if I was going to be able to share when me and Ron first recorded this, but I played the video for um let’s say a friend of mine who wanted to

see this and I wanted to talk with him and get confirmation. So, I I don’t mean to be evasive or weird, but the guy wants to stay anonymous, but I’ll say

this. There was somebody who called me because he was trying to figure out what was going on with the Michael Brown

stuff. And we spoke on the phone for a while and he spontaneously volunteered

that Brown had privately told him about Sarah getting memory recovery therapy or

at least Brown had put into his mind that Sarah had gotten memory recovery

therapy. He led him to believe this. Now, he volunteered this info and I stopped him in his tracks. I said, “Wait a minute. Stop. Please say that again.

this is really important. He said what to you? And we talked about that for a few minutes. Unexpectedly, I

wasn’t look looking for it. I didn’t think I didn’t know that there was anybody else he had said this to because he denied to me over the phone. Said he

didn’t say it to anybody. And that was a good reason to think that I was just remembering it wrong. But I now have

another witness. And not only is there him, but also he told it to his wife. He went to his wife after the fact and he

um she heard his part of the conversation and they also discussed it. And in that conversation, he tells her

about the memory recovery stuff that it was um put into his mind. I’m using my

words carefully here. Put into his mind. Words were said by Dr. Michael Brown that put into his mind the belief that

she had gone to a counselor and received memory recovery therapy. I am not alone in this. This is very disappointing. And

he not only told me over the phone that he didn’t tell me that, he told me he never told anybody that. and he used

that as leverage to try to convince me that I was remembering wrong, which I consider to be um if true, that’s

good. Tell me I’m wrong, but but if not, it’s high level manipulation and lies

after the fact, which is part of this whole culture of coverup thing. I’m not going to be party to a culture of cover

up, right? And I can tell you that in a letter he wrote to my leadership team as he was getting very concerned about me.

Uh because again I came initially in in love and compassion and willing to walk with him through a process. But it it it

got intense very quickly. And he wrote my leadership team to try to get them to rem to yank me. You know, these are my

peer leaders. and um and he wrote uh

uh Nancy and I want to reach out to Sarah as per our statement regardless of

how much others have gotten into her ears in recent years and to what extent

her memories have changed. So I I he’s

clearly planting a seed there that her memories have been changed. This was just after I met her. He wasn’t

referring to me getting in her ears because I I didn’t know anything about this until October of 2024, but he seems

to think that there are a bunch of people that were kind of urging her to,

you know, didn’t he do this, didn’t? But the truth of the matter is, and here’s the truth, folks, she only talked to two

people. One was Chris Bennett in 2020. We’re going to learn about that later on. And the other was Amber Rhodess in

uh just after Mike went to IHOP who reached out to her with the same question. Was there more? Again, there’s

a group of maybe 50 people that have questions in their mind about Mike

Brown’s relationship with Sarah Monk because it was so confusing back when things took place. So, she was the

second person, Amber Rhodess, she was the second person that Sarah opened up to and said, “Yeah, something something

happened.” But until 2020, Sarah never told anyone. So the idea that there’s a group of people putting memory there,

there is no group. So um certainly when I came along to her, I I I just listen

to her story for an hour and a half. The nature of this is he has to

ruin her her the reliability of her testimony in order to establish his own

testimony on these issues. But because we can show he has a pattern of of of being deceptive and manipulating and

giving halftruths throughout the course of time to many many people um it only

bolsters the credibility of Sarah’s testimony and and my own so my own experience to offer a small piece of

this is that um I’m confident he tried to mislead me and then later tried to

mislead me about misleading me and that that is shocking and unexpected and I

would never have thought he would do Okay, that surprises me. I’m not mad and angry over it, but I think I have a

responsibility for the sake of say Sarah, whose name is being bismerched here, to speak the

truth about this issue. Yeah. And and that’s that’s a side of Mike that you you only meet when his

backup is back up when his back is up against the wall. Sadly, he’s capable of

of misleading, lying, gaslighting in order to save himself. That is my opinion. Uh and and by the way, I keep

saying things are my opinion because presently uh Mike Brown is threatening me with a lawsuit or at least his lawyer

is. Okay. So, just finishing up on that point number one, the reason I asked him

to answer these specific things after he told me that everything was false and then he answered them, you know,

confessing to to most of it, uh was because he was asking us and many of his friends have have big platforms bigger

than mine. Um and what he was hoping that people and I believe like you Mike

Winger that that that they would defend him. He needed them to defend him. So it was based on that that he he did

something that he hadn’t done with others for the most part which was uh well I shouldn’t say others. He he he

doesn’t always do which is to answer by email because once you answer once you confess that becomes public record if if

someone wants to make it public. So um that’s why he ended up confessing at that point. Okay.

If this is all anyone hears from this video, I mean, I hope we can put like a a chapter point here because this is the

most egregious thing of just about anything he said in that absurd interview. Uh, but when he told uh

Heather Shot, in fact, let me let me go ahead and just play it for you. Right. But I’m going to set this up just

to remind anybody who gets a little lost in the names. Kim was the woman who he had a erotic relationship with. um

married and mother married woman. Yeah. Married mother whose dad was working for him in the ministry. And now he’s trying

to who’s husband, not dad. Um and now what he’s trying to do is distance

himself from the the gravity of what was happening there. And it’s with something

that is simply a lie. And this is example number two. I was Mike. I was not Dr. Brown. I was

not her pastor. Was not over her spiritual. I led the school of ministry. She was not a student in the school.

Yeah. He’s going to say that this is not clergy sexual abuse because they were peers, you know. And so just for folks

who are not familiar with that term, uh the idea of clergy sexual abuse is the idea that a powerful pastor, minister,

evangelist would use their status, their celebrity, their anointing in order to

Mike Mike Bickl is a perfect case to draw uh the vulnerable into uh a sexual

relationship. that is clergy sexual abuse where if Mike Brown were the plumber, Kim probably would not have

ended in that type of relationship with him. It was because of his position. And so, let’s go ahead and just listen to

this. Okay. So, as somebody who was around back then, I I want folks to

understand that that Mike was bigger than life. the idea that they both work in the church like it’s first community,

you know, this was the Brownsville revival with two million visitors over five years, you know, hundreds of

thousands of people getting right with God. A Bible school came out of it. So, the the four principal leaders uh were

were celebrities. Not and that’s I don’t mean that necessarily in a bad sense, but they were known and Mike was one of

those leaders. He was the in-house scholar. You know, if anyone like Hank Hanograph came after the revival, it was

he wrote a book, what was it called? Do not be deceived. Uh he was the in-house scholar when it came resident scholar

when it came to the revival. Not to mention that he had a regular Saturday morning. Understand people came from all

over the world and they would come for like a week. So we had services Wednesday night uh uh Thursday night,

Friday night and then Saturday morning or afternoon all those visiting pastors which which could be hundreds would meet

with Mike because he was a a brilliant preacher scholar. And so the idea that

they were peers is is technically impossible. Were they friends? Did they do fun things together that friends do?

I’m sure that they they did. But again, if he were the plumber, they would not have been in that relationship.

Yeah. Uh they didn’t just go to the same church. Exactly. But they’re not just attending the same

church. They’re in a very particular environment where he has this this ve this this leadership pastor relationship

high leadership. I mean a apostle could I say I mean I don’t know what what he was considered.

Not not in that if anyone played the role of the apostle would have been John Kapatrick though he would never use that

terminology. He was the he was the leader among leaders. There were four principal leaders. John Kilpatrick was

the primary leader. The buck stopped with him. Yeah. And so his relationship with them was not it was it’s misleading. Yes.

They went to the same church, but it’s misleading to couch that as the definition of the relationship. Yes. Without a doubt. And then it it it

moves into inappropriate behavior where Mike is uh is calling Rey on the phone

and then he’s saying, “Hey, Mike loves to share good news. You know, ministry. He’s always got a there’s always a

breakthrough. there’s always a new opportunity and a new book being written. And so it started um with with

Mike calling Ray, but then he would say, “Hey, put Kim on the phone.” And then it ended up with Mike just calling Kim and

then emailing Kim back and forth. The following is an excerpt from Ray’s testimony on brownwitnessreport.com,

page 13. Ry says, “I was getting really tired of so much of Mike’s imposing on a

daily basis. I began expressing my uneasiness to my wife. Mike would call on the phone and talk to me sharing some

good news about a breakthrough in ministry. And then he would say, “Put Kim on. Let me tell her.” It seemed

harmless, but eventually Dr. Brown began to call Kim directly. There was too much of Mike in our lives.

And then in the interview, it’s like we’re all inter, you know, everybody’s emailing everybody, Nancy and Ray. And and all of us emailing back and

forth when I’m writing a new book, send it to the husband wife. They’re each sending me their comments and NY’s, hey,

I heard from them today. the, you know, because we’re just interacting constantly. Nancy would email the husband, you know, but Ray’s like, “No, I never emailed

Nancy.” And I know Ry. I knew I know Ray and Kim personally. And um Rey actually

ended up reaching out to me. Uh I hadn’t seen him in 25 years and he ended up reaching out to me in December. And the

reason he reached out to me, hey guys, Mike Winger cutting in here to add some needed information for you to have. This

is not just a he said, she said thing. This is all very important. The reason why Rey reached out and decided to open

his mouth and speak publicly about this issue for the first time in over 20 years is because he found out that

Michael Brown had told Chris Bennett, according to Chris Bennett, and I do think he’s telling the truth, that he

portrayed this discovery that Sarah made where she found this yellow pad with with writing that was erotic in nature.

He portrayed this discovery as though it was one-sided, as though it was coming from Kim to him, and he just wrote it

down. I’ll quote from the article here. Brown reportedly claimed that she said something inappropriate that caught him

off guard, so he wrote it down. This implies that he is just an innocent guy

who is, you know, trying to do the right thing. Um, this is very far from the

truth and it creates a very false impression in the mind of those who hear it. There’s multiple people that he gave

this impression that it was a one-sided thing because he didn’t give any other details other than what he said about

that. So, this caused Ry to reach out and he is now public on

brownwitnessreport.com. His statements are there and I think that they’re very relevant and they’re

not alone. There’s many witnesses to corroborate the fact that he Mike Brown’s just not giving consistent and

honest answers. When the first article came out that Kim, his wife wrote some

said something to him that was inappropriate and he wrote it down. And by the way, if you listen and read to

every different answer Mike has given for his relation with Kim, they can’t all be true because he told uh Mike

Labanovic, also an elder and leader in the FIRE movement, uh he told Mike when he confronted him in 2023, he said,

“Yes, she wrote me something that was inappropriate.” So I printed it up and I

showed it to Nancy, his wife, and we were going together confront her. That

it’s just all these different stories. I confronted him on this, Ron, in our phone call. I confronted Michael on this

and I said, “Hey, you li you you misled Mike Leonovic because he was like, give me an example of me using halftruths to

mislead people.” I was like, “You made it look like this was just her corresponding to you, her writing to you

something inappropriate and you recording it for accountability purposes. That’s what you made it sound

like.” And he he told me his defense of this was that um and and it’s I have a

the whole conversation is recorded because he wanted to record it so he can share the whole thing if he wants. But his response to this um and if he

doesn’t that’d be fine by me. But his response to this was was that he didn’t share more with Mike because he was

defending the honor and protecting Kim and everyone else.

How does that protect Kim? So my push back was that doesn’t make sense because the person who you put on the hook was

her and you and the person you got off the hook was yourself. Your version of defending her is you defending yourself.

This is and it it was like talking to a brick wall. Um I’m going to read to you guys from the actual audio transcript,

my transcript that I’ve written up of the conversation I have with Dr. Michael Brown. He asked me not to share the

audio unless one of us had misqued it publicly. It’s kind of a strange request. It implies that we can quote it

publicly but not play it publicly. And I agreed and so I’m going to honor that. I confronted Michael Brown about Mike

Leonovic specifically and I said, “You misled him with a halftruth.” His response was, “I said as much as I could

say without dishonoring spouses further, but always consistently.” I replied, “What I hear you saying is you were

trying to protect her and other people and so you shared only certain parts of what happened. But the thing that’s

inconsistent there is that the parts that you shared were the parts that made her look bad. Michael Brown says, “No,

never. The piece of paper was what everyone asked me about because that’s what Sarah found. So that’s what I

responded to.” I replied, “The parts you shared was that she wrote to you content

and information that was inappropriate and then you didn’t share. The part you didn’t share is that you also

corresponded to her in similar ways.” Mike Brown then I think in this conversation he’s nitpicking on

terminology. So, I tried to dodge it real quick, but he says, “We didn’t correspond.” That’s the first thing I

said. Whether it’s verbal or phone, you interacted. So, I don’t want to argue over the definition of words. The part

that you shared made her look bad and brought embarrassment to her marriage, but it didn’t. It protected you, not

her. That’s my point. It’s not consistent with what you’re telling me right now. Mike said, “First, I was

asked what was on the paper. Mike, I was asked and I said as little as I could so as to protect her while telling the

truth. And it was not up to me to say anything more than that, that we had sinful emotional tie, that we said

sinful things to each other. All I was asked was what was on the piece of paper and I answered honestly. I replied that

she shared sinful things to you, but not that you shared them to her. That’s what that sounds like. That sounds like

you’re protecting yourself and not her. And the conversation continued to go on. And eventually we come back to this and

I said to portray the story as though she was someone who was inappropriate towards you and you were someone who was

trying to create an accountability record of it is misleading. Mike says well that’s the truth. I replied it’s a

halftruth that creates a deception. Mike says in your mind in my mind I’m trying

to honor spouses and do the right thing. I replied well her husband Rey did not

feel honored. That’s why he came forward. He felt like it was the opposite. he felt like you were protecting yourself and throwing her

under the bus, right? And he said, “No, that’s not what happened.” And he has a different account of why he thinks Ry

came forward. Our phone conversation lasted for over 2 hours and it’s one of the reasons why

I’m making this video now. This is actually really important that that the recounting of what were the details of

written on this thing and how he answered objections, it wasn’t that he exactly lied. it was that in many cases

he shares just enough of the truth to put a lie into the mind of a person who’s listening to him. Um, and that is

what happened, I think, with Mike. Well, it was it was Kim’s husband, Ry, who wrote um, and I’ll get back to Ray

in a minute, but he wrote just in in uh, we made a YouTube video where I read a letter from him and a letter from their

daughter, Jordan. I’ll link that below. It was really good, by the way. I’ll link it below. Please do because it I mean it’s just

heartbreaking to hear particularly from Jordan the daughter. But um Ry writes in

there something like Mike knows how to tell a truth but not the truth. And that’s what happens here is you know

Mike will tell a truth. She said something but not the truth. And I said something

too. You know that. So and like you said it doesn’t defend her. It it defends

him. But in terms of telling Oh, getting back to Ray. So, the reason Ry got in touch with me is because the Mike

appeared to throw her under the bus. Rey would have gone to his grave happy to

never bring up this horrible issue in in in his marriage. And him and his wife uh

they reconciled beautifully. They lived another 20 plus years together. uh

children, grandchildren, uh and I know some of them uh I don’t want to go into

more detail, give away any identity, but they’re dear, sweet, godly people. And um so when Rey saw that Mike was be

bismerching her name, she passed. I didn’t think I make that clear. She passed about two years ago. That’s when

Ry got a hold of me and he said, “I I have to defend my wife.” The following is an excerpt from the letter that Ry

sent to Ron in response to all the stuff that Michael Brown has been saying. To me though, in the present, the most

vicious twisting of perceptions is his explanation of the infamous nightstand

notes. The evil embedded in his nuance psyche is encapsulated within his short

and simple response. Quote, “She said something inappropriate that surprised me and I wrote it down.” He had the

audacity to accuse Kim of being the aggressor, all while making the claim

that he wanted to protect me and my family. Not only did Dr. Brown say this

to Chris Bennett years ago and to me personally, I can also say and show you

that he said this recently on the absolutely horrific Mercy Culture podcast.

But her participation, it it changed the tone of things. So, I had written down some inappropriate things that she had

said to me. Again, I’m guilty of my part. She’s guilty of her part. Just if if someone accused me or you tried to

initiate this or start this, I had just written it down. Somehow Sarah was rumaging through our our drawers, found

that um messages. So, these this is inappropriate things that Sarah had said to you. No, no, no. That’s the previous

relationship. There was never an inappropriate syllable between Sarah and things said by the married woman, right? Kim to me, right? that I there

was I was surprised when she said them and then I I wrote them down. I mean, I flushed flushed them out of my mind all

these years now, but I wrote them down. In case anyone ever said, “Well, you tried to initiate this or start.” It’s like, “Well, actually, there’s a whole

other side here.” And so, when we talk about Mike telling a truth, but not the

truth, it gets worse. This is the part that is so egregious. So, when Mike says when when we met, I

mean, he knows this. That’s the thing that’s crazy. He knows what I’m about to tell you and he didn’t tell Heather.

Maybe Heather knows it too. I don’t know. But he had very important information that would not have made him

look good. And he held it back as far as I can see to save himself.

We got to know each other uh in that context. And we were peers. I was Mike. I was not Dr. Brown. I was not her

pastor. I was not over her spiritual. I led the school of ministry. She was not a student in the school. And um we

became friends, Nancy and I, and became really good friends. and we we started to hang out a lot because the fact of

the matter is is he was her pastor when the abuse took place. He was her

senior pastor. So he is correct when he says when we met we were both part of

the same congregation. I was I was the president of the school. She wasn’t a student of the school. I don’t agree

that they were peers. I think that that’d be impossible but technically correct. But there was a split. Mike was

fired from his job and then he started a school right down the road within within a couple weeks and and that that’s a big

part of his defense. He was just so burnt out from going through the split. What happened again, no excuse, but in

the same burnt out state. So I was physically burnt out. So I I would go 70 80 hours 70 to 80 hours a week of

ministry related stuff. So I was physically burnt out if you’ve been through a split. So emotionally I’m burnt out. and we were now under hellish

financial pressure that that I I was in the worst most burnt out state of my life. I mean, I told him I was

struggling and burnt out. But what he doesn’t tell, and this is just dishonest, there’s no other explanation

for this other than that he was misleading Heather’s shot and misleading you, misleading the body of Christ, not

letting them know that by that time he had been fired, started a school, and

they started Fire Church. Mike was the senior leader of Fire Church. I don’t

know if he called himself a pastor, but he was the lead elder. Nobody would deny

that. It’s it’s written in places that he was the founder. And uh and they

started going to that congregation. And in fact, it was it was right around the time May of 2001

that they started going to the congregation. And uh it was later on that year in I

think August 2001 that Mike convinced Rey to come and work for him.

So he’s in a he’s in a spiritual leadership role and this is this is before the the relationship starts to

move inappropriate when when he becomes in in the in the

leadership pastoral well I mean exactly when the relationship became inappropriate. If I had to guess, I

would say it was sometime in the spring of 2001 and and it and it progressed

uh verbally and and online. When did it become erotic? Probably not until the fall of of 2001.

At the time that he was hiring Ry. Yeah. And the thing I want to highlight is in the interview he’s he talks about

when they met he’s he leaves out the details that would establish the real nature of their relationship and that he

was not only a spiritual leader to them but then eventually a boss an actual boss uh an employer to the to the

husband senior pastor of the entire family and boss to Ray. But the thing that is so

egregious about Mike hiring Ray at that time, let let me just play this clip for you and we’ll be clear,

was just every day was to because we’re in the same city now. We have two schools. So if you’ve been through a

split, so emotionally I’m burnt out and we were now under hellish financial pressure uh because of the split and and

we still have the staff and the school but we got half the income and uh and we

were building a house. We didn’t have money for that. Our staff is not getting paid. Everyone’s sacrificing together. Yeah. So he he’s the context of him

sharing that I always want to give as much context because as what they took me out of context in that video. The

context is he’s saying why he was in a weak state. Um the split was a hellish thing. I was I I was on the other side

and it and it about broke me. I would wake up at 5 in the morning with my heart racing. It it was hellish. Um but

on the other side, you know, the appearances that they were giving is that life was great. that that they’re

they’re they’re moving on with their new school and life is perfect and uh but apparently it wasn’t and he’s saying

that they were under a hellish financial burden and and he was personally burned out which led to him doing those things.

Um but he says they had no money uh and he mentions his house that he was building it was it was you know some

have referred to it as a mansion. So while they had you know no money to to pay salaries they’re still and Mike

understand I don’t believe at that time Mike was paid by the school. He had a very vibrant ministry. This is on the

heels of the revival. So, he had invitations. He was probably out every weekend, you know, preaching and and bringing funds in. Um, but they had no

funds to pay the staff. I have friends whose children have told me they went without food. They could not buy

groceries. You know, nobody starved. You know, people were generous, but they literally didn’t have money to pay. And

it’s during that time that he hires Rey. So, knowing what we know now that that Mike is pursuing Ray’s wife, he’s now

her senior pastor, which makes it clergy sexual abuse. Mike leaves that out because he doesn’t want you to know

that. Very dishonest. And uh and then in the midst of that, he hires Ray. So now

Ry is his employee and he pays him a a marketworthy salary without fail every

single week. Ry had no idea that other people weren’t getting paid. He only found out that later on. Uh but and he

says that the job was undefined. He did not know what he did and he finally quit. Before the end of the year, he

felt so weird about the job that he quit. But it would appear to anybody with common sense that Mike brought him

on to keep him closed because of his relationship with Kim. That’s deeply

disturbing. um when you’re you’re potentially here the the what it looks like is the use of

what are way too limited ministry funds in order to employ somebody because of

some weird personal agenda that he has to create relationships and connections

for himself. Um the guy has a job he’s like I’m not really sure what I’m doing. Why am I here? And he’s getting paid

when other people aren’t. He’s actually it sounds like he hired Rey while they’re at a low point. not able to pay

other staff. So, he’s he’s got other staff he hired. It doesn’t sound like that. That that was the case. I mean, that’s a fact. Mike Mike shares that out of his own

mouth. We couldn’t pay staff. Yeah, that’s

it. Well, we all know what it looks like. And so, to couch it as a peer-to-peer relationship is, as you

said, misleading. That is a lie. Yeah. And then if you if you actually go and read Ray’s letter or listen to me

read it, you know, he says that because they stayed friends for a while, they they I won’t get into the whole how how

it was because there’s two different versions of everything. Um but after it

was all over, they tried to m they forgave each other and they tried to maintain relationship. Mike should have

by all accounts gone to uh to his eldership and confessed. Uh, but it’s I

won’t go to the point in the video, but there’s a point in the video where Mike says leaders are split on this. Yeah, he said that. He said some people

thought he should confess and some didn’t. You know what I I There’s a clip, maybe I’ll find this clip and I’ll

I’ll insert it here for people to hear, but there’s a clip where he talks about if you have a soul tie, one of the things you have to do is tell the people

you’re accountable to about it. You have to be utterly ruthless with a soul tie. You have to tell those that

you’re accountable to or that you’re close to. Like if you’re a married man and you had a soul tie to uh to another

woman and and you just you got emotionally bound up with her, you have to tell your wife, a spiritual leader,

you have to tell that person, we can have no more contact. You ask God’s forgiveness. So he specifically calls out a sultai

and says this is what you have to do. Here’s the process you have to do. So he’s not confused about the issue until it’s applied to himself.

It’s every when everything’s theory, it’s so much easier. you know, when when

you know, James chapter 1 talks about rejoicing in trials. That is I every time I read that, I get this warm

feeling inside of me until I’m actually in a trial and it’s a lot more difficult. So, but getting it back to

that point, the idea that leaders are split. I have I have discussed this Heather with many leaders and there’s a

division. Plenty say because there’s no physical adultery, you handle it the right way. It’s nobody else’s business.

Why? Why bring this to wider attention? Others have said no, it’s imperative that their other leaders were involved.

I would I would challenge Mike. Can you show me those leaders who are split on this? Because it’s now been almost a

year and I’ve not yet met one leader who believes that you could have a sinful soul tie where you get into erotic

speech with a woman where according to the husband Mike has confessed to this.

You you demanded that she not sleep with her husband and you pressured her to meet you somewhere privately. I don’t

know anyone who says that you can go through those things and not take it to leadership. But you’re you 50% I I

haven’t fel I have not met anybody on the other 50%. And I just have to suggest that maybe you’re making that

up. Maybe that is just completely made up because if you look at all my emails uh between him and I, it’s always, you

know, every leader I talk to tells me this and it’s always what he wants to hear. And you know, even a lawyer I

talked to told me this. And it’s either that he’s setting them up by downplaying

what has happened or he’s just not being honest. Right. I think that’s a good I think that’s a good summary right there. One

or the other. So clearly this is clergy sexual abuse. This is somewhere a member of the

clergy, the senior pastor of the congregation has now hired the husband and uh that means that every week their

paycheck is dependent on the generosity of that employer who is also the senior pastor. So when you talk about clergy

sexual abuse, you’re talking about the power differentiation. So if there wasn’t one when they met when they were

quote unquote peers, which I don’t believe that was possible, they they’re certainly not peers now. Mike is the

employer and he is the senior pastor. And what makes this so egregious is that

he did not tell Heathershot that information. Yeah. It’s misleading. Very, very

misleading. So going it’s not just misleading, it’s misleading to his own advantage. It’s

getting him out of jail because what he wants to do, it seems, is get away from the idea that this was him him uh doing something wrong in

relation to his ministry position, right? that this is clergy sexually

abusive misconduct, which is which is actually what the investigation concluded. It was quote sexually abusive

misconduct. To which his elder board responded, we reject that phrase and substitute our own and we’ll just call

it leadership misconduct because they they this is part of the damage control thing. It’s just just face up to the

music. Deal with deal with what it is. When I had the opportunity to meet with uh a couple of the people on that board,

I said, “When you change those words, you you deleted the significance of Sarah as a person because leadership

misconduct can be a lot of different things, but clergy sexual misconduct uh

or sexually abusive misconduct rather. Uh that is something that is done to another person and it was done to Sarah.

By changing that, it was it was dishonoring and disrespectful. um they didn’t agree with me, but we we we had a

very honest open conversation.

Getting getting further along in our discussion number three. So, uh I’m going to play a clip from the

from the interview mutual me responding to her emails, her responding to mine.

And I had all my walls up as a leader, you know, meet together privately, you know, but emails I didn’t have a wall

for like phone calls, meetings, I did, but so we just got drawn in emotionally

and it ended up just being a very in intense uh emotional affair.

So, you know, I don’t want to make fun of somebody who is who is, you know, grieving over their sin. I don’t know.

Uh I don’t want to judge that. I’m not going to say anything more about that. the the the the concern I have is that

if that if that ended if that affair ended in uh

February 2002 and he has broken over the fact that he

did not have a wall for he had a wall for physical you know I guess the Pence rule you know don’t meet in the same

room as as as a female alone uh he understood that rule but he didn’t have

and I get that I have listen I females text me and I’m I’m I’m It’s different.

You got to make sure it doesn’t move, you know, that you’re really talking about something that you’re supposed to be talking about and it’s not, you know,

you know, personal. So, the the problem is it doesn’t line up with with the

history of everything that happened. Like, for instance, um uh he didn’t have

his walls up for physical uh for for for being with women alone. Sarah writes

this in the brownwitnessreport.com. The one who condemned so many for a lustful eye. Who screamed from the

pulpit, repent of your sinful ways. The one who taught us to live holier than

the day before. The one who preached revolution. The one who said being alone with the opposite sex was a sin and

would get you kicked out of school. Yes, that Dr. Michael Brown was alone in his

office with someone from the opposite sex touching my butt as I would exit his

office. So, this is afterwards. So, that’s why the the crying is a little

bit, you know, concerning because you you actually went further. You didn’t go

backwards. You didn’t get stronger according to Sarah. You got looser in your willingness to be alone. and um

well and and multiple meetings alone and parking lots which I was I was

we’ll get we’re coming to that one later. Okay, we’ll save that for later. But there’s there’s other examples of this of this meeting alone. This wall was not up in

other words. Right. And multiple witnesses saw saw them alone in his office. Two people say

they saw Sarah sitting in his lap alone in his office. Um another staff member who is both close both to Sarah and Dr.

Brown. Uh she said the three of them would always be alone in his office and that she would also be alone in Dr.

Brown’s office during a hard day. She was weeping into Dr. Brown’s chest, not Sarah, this other other staffer. And

just the two of them alone in his office. I mean, highly I’m sure she was going through a difficult time, but she

recognizes now it was highly inappropriate. But the most damning thing that you were alluding to earlier

is what happened at Walmart.

you know, but you met late at night at Walmart. Okay, hang on. I I’d tell Nancy, hey, I’m on my way

home. Got to stop at Walmart. Do you need anything? So if Sarah want to talk, I said, hey, I’m heading over to

Walmart. You know, she text me, where are you? I said, I’m heading over to Walmart. So the problem with that is that Mike is giving the idea that that

him and Sarah, first of all, the idea of I always put myself in the situation. I was part of that that that that

faculty group and I’m trying to imagine myself at at Walmart

in a public place with a student uh a female student, you know, 20 years younger than me. I I I think I would be

in big trouble. Um but that’s not exactly what happened. Let’s listen to what

Yeah, this is I want to hear everything you’re going to share, but this is way worse than he makes it sound. It’s I

would rather her be in his office where at least you are surrounded by staff and anybody could come in than at night in a

parking lot at Walmart. And he couches Walmart like it’s some public hub where people who know them are all going to

wander around the parking lot at Walmart at night and see them there. But that’s not a public place. That is that is a

private situation very much so. And it’s nighttime. And let’s just be real about human nature. A man and a woman at night

is worse than a man and a woman during the day. It’s absolutely. And so, uh, according to Sarah, most of the time when she would

arrive, he’d already done his shopping and they would sit in the car alone and

talk. These are her words. Many late nights, he and I would be chatting on

instant messenger. By the way, this is just 6 months or 3 months after

realizing that he didn’t have his walls up regarding, you know, texting. So many late nights

he and I would be chatting on instant messenger while he at his office and I was at home he would ask me to very

important here he would ask me if you go and listen to what he tells Heather it’s she asking him most of the time that’s

how he presented it to me too right she was like I need to talk I’ve got some problems I want to resolve oh

well I’m I’m on my way to Walmart which I initially in our first conversation thought it was one meeting one time at Walmart and I was like okay well one

time she’s in a crisis and you’re like I’m at Walmart. Just meet me here. Um, not wise, but more understandable than

like how do you end up at Walmart three times? Five. How many times do you think they did this? No, it was according to it happened. It

happened. It was a regular event. He would stay late at work. And you know, Mike works late. He writes a lot. And so

he’d probably leave, I don’t know, 9, 10. So, uh, and by the way, I thought

the same thing when he first told me about this. And he told me put his arm around her. I don’t know why he told me that. Um, but he said, you know, they’d

be at Walmart in a public place and he would put his arm around her and she’d be, you know, telling him about his family. He made it I I thought that that

was one time as well. Um, I went back and reread it and it’s a little bit my again my very good with words. But, um,

I had the impression that it was a one-time event because she was having family trouble. But this is Sarah. And

again, Sarah, as far as I know, has never lied to me. Mike has lied to me a lot. He would ask me to meet him at the

grocery store to go shopping. I would leave my house and meet him. By the time I got there, he would be done waiting

for me in the back of the parking lot. We would chat for a few minutes in his

car and then say our goodbyes. Sometimes it was just a I I want you to read the whole thing,

but I just I don’t want anyone to miss the significance of this. We are responding to public statements that are

not true that Mike Brown keeps making in defense of himself. That’s why we need to respond. Um this is not nitpicking.

This is about letting truth and accountability happen, which is what was supposedly supposed to happen when a third party investigation took place

that is elderboard and rejected. So, we’re we need to go through this. But he

with with Heather on tape, but also with me and you privately made us think that it was her who instigated these meetings

and that Walmart was a very public location. Two things she says in her statement there conflict with that. One

is he asked her to meet, not the other way around. and two, back of the parking

lot. So, he’s deliberately parking away from the public, away from the people who would see them. That’s that’s what

that sounds like. And that would be wisdom because if he’s caught, that could be the end of the entire school. I mean, his message was

at such a high level of purity and holiness. I mean, this is behavior that

to this day, as the former students have found out about it, they’re they’re just stunned because even for the ones who

may have had issues with Dr. Brown, they just didn’t think he was capable capable of this type of behavior. So, but he’s

not being honest. Again, yes, he was uh by the time I got there, he would be I I’m I’m forgive me for laughing. It’s

just it’s just so crazy. By the time I got there, he’d be done waiting for me in the back of the parking lot. I would

we would chat for a few minutes in his car, then say our goodbyes. Sometimes it would be just a hug, a smack on the

butt, or a kiss good night. And she was clear to me that would that would be a kiss on the lips. I never actually

helped him grocery shop. These late night meetings happened a lot. So again,

he led you to believe that it was one time. He led me to believe, at least that’s what I believed it was one time.

And um I’m pretty sure on our phone call when I confronted him on this, I said, “You you you led me to think it was one time and

she instigated it because of a family crisis.” And he was like, “Well, I didn’t say that.” And I I said, “You led

me to believe it.” Which is which I’m being careful with my words, too. You did lead me to believe that. And then I

said, “How many times did you meet?” And I’ll have to check the transcript and I’ll put up text or something to confirm if if I’m getting this wrong here on the

screen right now, but I think you told me three times. Maybe three times. So it sounds like for her testimony that it

was a lot more. Yes. Well, let let these late night meetings happened a lot. Does that sound

like three to you? No. Sounds like a lot. So yeah, she said these things happened a lot and she’s got nothing to gain from

this. She’s not getting money. She’s not looking for money. She’s not suing anybody. She lives a quiet life in

Texas. She’s a good woman, married, loves her children. This has been a huge

disruption to her life. but she came forward because it was the right thing to do. And um Micah on the other hand

has a lot to lose if this information comes out. So that’s kind of why I’m inclined to believe her. Um but then she

goes on to say this. Sometimes we would sit in his car again late at night once

fire elder and leader Keith Collins saw Mike and I in his car and became concerned. To be clear, any fire school

of ministry student sitting in a car of of someone of the opposite sex late at

night would be disciplined and probably kicked out of school. Mike was the president and I was on his staff. Mike

has admitted to this encounter because there are two witnesses, me and Keith. But there were many more times that he

would call me to meet with him late at night. And this and here’s Keith Collins. He was so just so you know

Keith Collins is because you’ll hear about him later. He is an elder in in this this is a new school fire church

fire uh fire school and and Keith is a faculty member and a uh an an elder. So

Keith wrote this on the same issue. Um I confronted Dr. Brown 23 years ago due to

the fact that it was brought to my attention that he was seen holding Sarah’s hand in a vehicle. That was the

one that Chris saw as well as the fact that he was with Sarah at Walmart alone

which was witnessed by Darla that’s his wife and me. So this this leader comes

to Walmart and you know I think he was getting paint or something and he

sees in a parked car Mike and Sarah and he’s shocked and he’s stunned and and he

doesn’t confront them right there on the spot because it’s it I wouldn’t know if I I would have been too scared. I mean

you just don’t want to be the person catching somebody in that. But he but eventually as more and people more

people begin to talk about their relationship, he and another brother do talk to Mike about their relationship.

And we’ll get back to that later. So just to be clear, if I was a faculty member back at that time, I was 36 years

old. If I was in my car in a Walmart with a 20-year-old student or or or

staff member, I think that would have been the end of of of my career there and maybe the end of my ministry. So the

we’re Mike is constantly making light of these things, but but these are serious issues.

Okay, let’s move on. And it kind of dubtales with the um Walmart, but it has

to do with uh his assertion that everything was done in public on purpose

because it’s in public and people can see. Yeah. So if Sarah want to talk, maybe something’s going on with her family.

You just wanted to chat. I said, “Hey, I’m heading over to Walmart.” You know, she texted me, “Where are you?” I said, “I’m heading over to Walmart.” Um, why

Walmart? Cuz that’s the one place where there were people. It’s a public place. If I wanted to have a secret meeting,

there’s like a thousand places. You can meet me at my office where I’m out by myself. Right. Exactly. Or go and we didn’t have

security cameras all over the or or any any school where there’s nothing going on. The whole Well, you met at Walmart.

It’s the most innocent thing. I’d call Nancy, say, “Hey, I’m on my way over to Walmart. Uh, meeting Sarah there. need

anything. It was it was that it’s in my journal, you know, Sarah at Walmart. Just the

most innocuous thing. So, I’m gonna say it’s not the most innocuous thing for a

46-year-old married man leader of a Bible school being alone at a Walmart. In fact, here’s what he wrote me. I I

actually I forgot I had it right in front of me in front of me. Um when when he addressed it back in October, it was

the Walmart nearest her office. Sometimes if she had a rough time at home, she would want to talk with me. So

I intentionally told her I would talk to her, talk with her at a public place. I would put my arm around her like I would

a daughter idiotically but intentionally uh in public. And and I would just say

that that if you’re a student of that school and you show up at that Walmart, again, we we know now that it according

to Sarah, it always happened in in the in the car. But even that, I don’t know

how Mike doesn’t understand how troubling that is. If you’re a student and you walk into that Walmart and you

see a man that you love and you respect and his and and whose whose motto is

unto death, you know, to the ends of the earth and he has his arm around a

attractive 20-year-old staff member. That’s confusing. Like, you’re probably

not going to confront him because it’s horribly uncomfortable and intimidating, but what do you do with that

information? So, um, not innocuous. Not innocuous. Not the most innocent

thing. If someone was meeting with your daughter late at night at Walmart in a regular basis, sitting in the car and

talking together, you wouldn’t be like, “That’s got to be like the most innocent thing that you can think of.”

Yeah. And then, and then it’s going to happen. Yeah. A married man who’s older, who’s a spiritual leader, meeting with a young lady at

night at Walmart in the parking lot. But it’s all intensified, Mike, because of the Brownsville revival intensity. Like

we were we were the I’ve talked to I’ve interviewed on my own. This is not public. I’ve I’ve interviewed two people who were part of

it, okay? Two different witnesses who share with me what the culture was like, what the environment was like. And so,

yeah, this was to them. You can see it through their eyes. They go, the nobody would have allowed anyone to

do that at at that at that especially him. And yet he was doing it. and he uh

he was violating the culture that he created because it just the rules just didn’t apply to him the same way because

maybe because he views himself as being that innocent. Um but I don’t think that that’s true.

Yeah. And she’s also very clear that he was the one that called her quote he would regularly call me or email me when

he was leaving the office to go meet him at the store and it was never because I

needed to get out because of my home life. Now, he told you that and he told me that. Uh, but Sarah says that was

never the case. It was just the two of them hanging out. So, you know, this whole point is uh that Mike says

everything was done in public and it was done in public on purpose so that everyone would see. But we know from Sarah and from others that it wasn’t

always in public. We know that that there was other handholding incidents that we’ll get into. We know that Chris

Bennett when uh it saw the two of them in a stock room as he was bringing books back after a ministry trip saw the two

of them in a full frontal hug alone in that room. We know that Sarah had unfettered access to his office by her

own admission. And and this other female staffer said that she was able to go in his office. In fact, she says that she

would go into his hotel room on ministry trips and fix his hair. Just the two of

them alone in I mean a hotel room that is she’s fixing his hair. She’s fixing his hair before he would go

out and preach and and making sure that his tie or whatever to be clear she’s I

don’t think they were doing anything that would be weird if there were other people in the room. It’s only weird

because there were not other people in the room. Yeah. Yeah. The and and just to remind everybody that you know the the purpose

of sharing this is twofold. one to establish the truth about what happened because public statements are being made about people and the things they’ve gone

through in particular Sarah and Kim and and Ry. But the second reason to do this

is because it’s part of a pattern of manipulation

where whereby he is gaslighting everybody. And I’m I’m very sad to say

this. I don’t want to make this video. Um, and uh, what’s funny is that there in in uh, the the shots they were like

mock I think it was in their video they were mocking people for saying I don’t want to make this video as if they really secretly want to make like I’m

I’m sitting here like so excited I get to do this. Um, this is this is lame. Okay, this this

whole thing is lame. This is not a win uh at this stage for anybody. It’s only

a win if it helps to change the culture of cover up and create proper accountability where leaders can’t just

stand up and proclaim their own innocence and then demonize the people that they’ve hurt. Um, if we can stop

that from happening, it’s a win, right? And and as I said earlier, if not for the fact that Mike just produced uh

a video uh of him preaching and basically presents himself as a victim,

you know, who who’s gone through this horrible thing being falsely accused and um and uh you but he he was contrite and

broken and and a wilderness experience and now he’s, you know, he’s coming out of that, you know, as opposed to saying

just tell us what happened, you know, or don’t talk about it. You know what? Don’t why why even bring attention to

it? So that or else you know Mike I would not be making this video. But moving along let’s go to the initial

confrontation. Um so let’s play the clip on that.

Mhm. Two guys in and our among our leaders of staff come to talk to me and they say

we’re concerned you had an affair with Sarah. I said what? They said we saw the way you’re interacting. I said yeah I I

didn’t use all the best wisdom with that but it was completely innocent. Just like with a daughter. Well, we think you had an affair. And now this other has

this other dream. It’s like, what the where is this coming from? So I said,

“Investigate.” So they appointed a couple. I’m not going to mention their name. They appointed a couple who was also spreading the word that we had an

affair. And they call Sarah. She bursts out laughing. They I’ve got all the dates in November of 2002. They come to

me, the couple, apologetic. We’re so sorry. Sarah calls me laughing on the phone. I I noted my journal

flabbergasted like what are they talking about if and I didn’t coach her tell her

don’t say anything because I knew there’s nothing to say the worst she’s going to say is you know he was a little

too friendly but that’s it he he was a little too friendly he you know he’s touching my butt kissing me on the lips

according to Sarah um secretly holding I always touch my friends on the butt and kiss them on the lips and meet them

late at night only when I’m being friendly you know when I’m being really friendly I’m

friendly with. I don’t do that with, but it’s a little too friendly. So, this is called minimizing language for people who want to know. This is minimizing

language. And when somebody’s actually genuinely contrite, they do not use minimizing language. They fess up to

what they’ve done. And they don’t even let other people do it in their presence. They say, “No, no, what I did was not just friendly. It was

inappropriate. It was it was wrong. It was it was sexually abusive misconduct,

if you want to be consistent with the report, but it was definitely uh not in the friend category.”

Yeah. Yeah, and that’s quite powerful what you just said. You know, when when one who minimizes is not looking to be

upfront and forthright, but but the thing about just about everything he shared in that clip is not true. So,

first of all, um uh and when you have, you know, five or six people giving one

consistent story and then you have somebody else giving a different story, I’m going to go with the five or six. That’s that’s, you know, kind of how you

do justice. So, um, in this situation, uh, again, you know, uh, I’ll just read

from my notes. A little bit too friendly. Full frontal hugs, touching on the rear, many times kissing at least on

the forehead, but according to Sarah, on the cheek and then, uh, on the lips almost every day, uh, meeting alone in a

parked car. So, that that that’s not being a little bit too friendly. But they didn’t accuse him of having an

affair. He says twice in that clip that they accused me of having an affair with Sarah. And he was incredulous. I mean, he’s just shocked by this. But again,

you don’t understand. You don’t walk up to Mike Brown. Uh, and I remember the atmosphere. I mean, he was now

the revolutionary leader. He, you know, left Brownsville and started fire school. And he was a bigger than bigger

than life figure. Even if he was going through the worst moment of his life, he and he was saying he was burned out for

those around him. He was still, you know, the king. And and so the idea that

these two uh other leaders just came and accused him, it’s I can’t even imagine

that. But let’s just listen to their own words. So here’s Nils Prep. Nils Prep is

uh one of those two. The other one was Keith Collins. And he says, “We never accused him of adultery.” And again,

this is written down. It’s in brown, what’s it called? Brownwitnessreport.com. We never accused him of adultery. Never.

You have to remember this really wasn’t a confrontation like everyone thinks. It

was us going him to share our concerns about what we were hearing and what

people were seeing because we thought it was inappropriate. Neither Keith nor I ever brought up adultery uh or or an

affair. So when somebody says you’re having an affair, they mean adultery. And uh and it would have been it would

have been inappropriate for them to jump to that. But that’s how Mike is presenting it, right? Um this is but this is this is

another classic tactic. So the tactic is someone says um I think that you

disrespected me and then they respond by going you’re saying I hate your guts. I can’t believe you think I hate your

guts. And now you’re like defending them against this accusation you didn’t bring

in order to justify yourself. And all of a sudden everything’s lost. your whole purpose, the reason why you were

confronting is is washed away and it’s looked at as um a ridiculous and they did this in the in the in the interview.

The whole interview with Landon, excuse me, with Heather Shot started by them laying accusations that to my knowledge

nobody’s bringing. No one seriously is bringing random stuff in comment sections, not like there’s witness

reports. There’s tons of individuals who have shared stuff. They didn’t they didn’t start with that. They started with these like immediately I started

getting calls from other pastors. This is September. Uh, Mike, is it true, Dr. Brown, is it true that you committed

adultery with three women? I said, what? That I had sex with three men? Yeah. No, of course not. Then I get another call.

Is it true you committed adultery with two women and assaulted another? Is we we hear that more are coming forward?

Uh, I hear you assaulted a young woman, but but I believe I I I believe in you.

Uh, is it true? I’m confused. I I hear you’re blackmailing people. I mean, crazy stuff.

Things that nobody’s saying. So that then they could set this up as if if those things aren’t true, then he must be it must it must be that you you know

he’s basically a good guy here. They call that building a straw man. You know I I made a video the other day

about a certain uh minister from Reading, California who said talked about the the us I used to be a minister

but now apparently I’m a podcaster. Um but uh I mean I’m an just so you know I’m an elder in a local congregation.

Um, and so, uh, you’re just an internet guy. Yeah. I love these labels, you know. So,

uh, he talked about every, you know, that that the podcasters and the on

social media are saying, “Crucify him. Crucify.” And I said, I said, “Who’s that? I I don’t hear that. People are

calling for accountability.” So, you’re building a straw man. And the straw man is that this there’s a big huge massive

people out there wanting to crucify these people who’ve fallen into sin. and and and they can never be forgiven.

That’s what he said that that that the mob is saying they can never and that is not true at all. There is no place for

repentance anymore. When a leader fails, the crowd wants to crucify him. The

Apostle Paul would have never been able to be in ministry. If I’m a business guy

and I fail, I get to keep my job. If I’m a pastor, we will exile you to Mars and

you will never be forgiven. The people that I know who are broadcasting on social media and and

bringing light to these issues are calling for repentance and forgiveness. Nobody’s calling for crucifixion. He he

literally claimed that they need to be put out of society. That that’s what we are saying. God forbid. I want Mike

Brown to come into the light. I pray that every single morning. Lord, bring Mike and Nancy into the light. That’s

all I want for them is to come fully into light and to be free and to be forgiven. Um, so, so, so here what Mike

is doing, it’s a straw man. Like they they accused me of something outrageous, so it couldn’t have happened. But they didn’t. According to Nils Prip, uh, they

never did accuse him um, of adultery after that confrontation. Or really, it

was a it was an inquiry, you know, it was more inquisit inquisitive than accusative. Uh, but after that, Mike was

asking them if they if if they believed him, and Niels said, “I’m not so sure.” Something happened during that meeting

that would have caused anybody to lose trust in Mike. Because he revealed something about Niels that was private

in front of somebody else. Almost like, I’ve got I’ve got stuff on you. And Neil

says, I I shared that with you in private, you know, several years ago. Like, why would you share that, right?

Has nothing to do with who we’re talking about. So he was could that the fact that Mike would do that made him think

that he’s hiding something. So he said, “I’m not sure I believe your your your side.” So that night, uh I’m going to

read I’m going to read from his email that this is something that he shared uh with 1400 students, former students

rather, and and faculty members uh back in December. That night, I got a call.

So, in during the day, him and Keith have this confrontation or communication where they express concern about his

relationship with Sarah. Uh, and they wanted more information. Mike said nothing happened. If anything, I was

just too friendly. And, uh, and he did not buy it 100%. That night, I got a

call from Mike and Nancy around 10:00, basically accusing me of trying to bring

down the ministry that I would single-handedly bring it down. It was a serious problem for the Browns that I

did not come out of that meeting telling Mike that I believed him. They were very upset with me and I was told, quote, “I

don’t see how you can continue to be a part of this ministry.” In other words,

he was fired. Uh, I did tell them I was planning on leaving anyways, so it didn’t matter. I told them I would

finish up some administrative stuff and be done. So they fired him because they

did not I mean that is not New Testament eldership. That’s not how it’s supposed to work. You know if anything you you

push it to the next level but they got rid of him. Yeah. This is what happens though. Um

this is what happened with Todd White. He just replaces his his leaders whenever they get too confrontive or too

disgruntled. He’s just boop, new ones, new ones, new ones. It goes through different board members really fast. And what’s sad about this situation is

Neil’s wife, you know, she like it wasn’t long after that that they bring

them up at the church to lay hands on them and send them out. Like it’s a positive thing. Like they didn’t get

fired that they like they weren’t getting pushed out. And she was so hurt on the verge of tears. She said, “I

wanted to scream and tell the students the truth, but and she wonders today if maybe she should have.” This particular

lie is he lied about the initial confrontation by Neils and Keith saying that um it was about him being accused

of having an affair which was of course ridiculous and then he just says he was too friendly. He leaves out the fact

that it was not about that. It wasn’t the confrontation about an affair whether somebody thought that in the

world. We’re not saying nobody thought that in the planet Earth but but that wasn’t what the confrontation was about. And then because he did not believe

Mike, which it seems to me he should not have believed Mike, um he was fired.

That is correct. You got that correct. There’s one more lie he told there. And that is that when that there was another

couple that was appointed to investigate and when they called up Sarah, she

laughed like, “Oh, that’s just it’s so absurd. It’s funny.” And then she called

up Mike and and laughed even some more. Now, I just want you to imagine that you’re a 20-year-old female staffer and

two grown adults, you know that Mike Brown has held your hand. You you at least, let’s just take his version in

the car one time and a few nights at Walmart and and touched your butt five

or six times, even though she says it was my Let’s just take Mike’s, you know, and then somebody calls you up that you

don’t really know all that well and they say, “I am concerned about your relationship with Mike Brown. I I

believe it is inappropriate. You’re 20 years old. This person’s an adult. You don’t laugh. You’re you’re at

that point. You’re you’re terrified. Even if you don’t believe it, I mean, only the most confident person in the

world would laugh at that point. And then call Mike up and laughing. But we know it didn’t happen because that

person was reached out to. I I know her name. I’m not going to use it. Mike know Mike and I both know who it is and we

both agree on who it is because he wrote down her name in his emails to me. So, a friend, a mutual friend got a hold of

her. And here’s what she said. She said, um, uh, I did call Sarah privately on my

own. No, they they were never asked to be a part of investigation. Um, and it wasn’t with her husband. It was just her

by herself. However, I did call Sarah privately on my own. And I asked her why she left so suddenly because there were

too many incidences that I saw that seemed inappropriate to me. We spoke

face tof face with Dr. Brown and Keith Collins in Doc’s office. He denied all

and tried to dump a bunch of guilt on us. We left it alone and left it in the

Lord’s hand, knowing that he, the judge of all of us, would one day deal with all of it, which is happening right now.

Let’s keep reading. She she and I have these. You can see the screenshots again. No one ever told me to call

Sarah. Sarah did not laugh out hilariously when I spoke to her. She was

actually very solemn and I did not believe her answer, presuming she didn’t want to tell on Doc or was covering for

Doc. Now, in that clip that you read, Mike says that this couple came back and

repented and apologized. I don’t if you remember that part. And they call Sarah. She bursts out laughing. They I’ve got

all the dates in November of 2002. They come to me, the couple, apologetic.

we’re so sorry. And and that’s the thing with Mike. Um he he regularly has these

stories about these people that he was at odds with and they come back and repent. And I’m not saying that they’re

not all true. I know that other witnesses have said, “Well, no, not with that guy. Not with that guy.” I know

with me, you know, we had a falling out of the split and in 2004, we had a meeting where we met at his office uh at

my initiative just to see can we is there can we can we get beyond this ever? uh I didn’t know and I was told

later that the secretary asked what I was doing there because again I was I was I was kind of seen as a traitor and

um and he he led her to believe uh that I had repented and uh I had not that was

the whole thing you still believe what you believe I still believe what I believe but can we be friends? Is there

a way we can be friends but moving past it? Yeah. Yeah. So he presents this couple uh as

having come back to him and repented. Again, you saw earlier she said, “We had that one meeting with with Keith Collins

and Dr. Browns and that was it.” And so and this is the couple he says accused him of having an affair.

Yes. Not had questions about a relationship, but accused him of having an affair and then later they came back and repented

of accusing him for having an affair. And what you’re saying is the book ends. Both of those things were not true. Uh

well listen uh her friend emails her on the 4th of July just a few days ago and

says good morning and happy 4th. So now Mike Brown claims that both of you came back to him and apologized after talking

to Sarah. Is that true? This is the response. Oh really? No that is not true. We never spoke to him about any of

it after the first talk in his office when he blamed us. So, this is just, you know, I I don’t know

anywhere any way else to say it, but this is like my life with Mike Brown when it comes to issues where I don’t

think Mike is it just is lying all the time. I think when his back is against the wall and he’s so good at it and so

confident because so if you go back, let’s just listen to that clip one more time with the knowledge that we have

right now be because he is so confident. Here we go. Mhm.

two guys in in our among our leaders of staff come to talk to me and they say we’re concerned you had an affair with

Sarah. I said what they said we saw the way you’re interacting. I said yeah I I

didn’t use all the best wisdom with that but it was completely innocent just like with the daughter. Well we think you had an affair.

So no they they they don’t think that they had that’s not what they said. We know that now. And the guy got fired for

not believing Mike. Fair. And now this other has this other dream. I was like, “What the where is

this coming from?” So I said, “Investigate.” So they appointed a

couple. I’m not going to mention their name. They So the couple says they were not appointed. She called Sarah on her

own. Mention their name. They appointed a couple who was also spreading the word that we had an affair. And they call

Sarah. She bursts out laughing. They So again, bursting out laughing. It just a

20-year-old girl gets accused of potentially having an affair. It it’s it’s not it’s not believable. And Sarah

says it never happened. And the woman says it never happened. I’ve got all the dates in November of

2002. They come to me, the couple apologetic. And and by the way, that that is a micism. I got the dates. I’ve written it

down. It’s in my journal. Um we’re so sorry. Sarah calls me laughing

on the phone. I I noted my journal. I’ve got all the dates. In November of 2002, they come to me, the couple, apologetic.

We’re so sorry. Never happened. Never. I mean, it’s it’s believable. You hear him

say it that way. But it according to the woman, never apologized. Never came back

and did not believe Sarah. And and and and she was right. Sarah will admit at this point that she was lying. Um that I

I believe she was given a head a heads up by Mike that they would be calling. And she she says that she lied for Mike.

And the woman whose name we’re not mentioning said she knew she was lying. So why would she go back and apologize

when she knew that Sarah was lying? We’ll finish finish the clip real quick. Sorry. Sarah calls me laughing on the

phone. I I noted my journal flabbergasted like what are they talking about if and I didn’t coach her tell her

don’t say anything because I knew there’s nothing to say. The worst she’s going to say is you know he was a little

too friendly but that’s it. Yeah. So, it’s weird that he says, “I

knew that the worst she was going to say is he was a little too friendly.” But actually, this whole thing is happening

because of the stuff that she says. If if all she said was he was too friendly, none of this would have

happened. It was it was the whole thing that triggered it was Sarah going, “All right, I’m going to I’m going to share what happened.” You know, I I uh and

then and then him minimizing it and in some cases denying things that look like they happen. But I think what the

message, this particular lie that we’re talking about now pulls together the fact that there is witness after witness

after witness after witness who is saying no, that’s not what happened. These different witnesses, their stories

are consistent with each other. Mhm. Mike stands alone. Now, in the interview

with Heather, he he talks and laments that all of a sudden, and or maybe it was in my private call with him. I’m

getting the two mixed up, but all of a sudden, everyone has a perfect memory. I think that I think it was my private

call. Everyone has a perfect memory. And I said, “No, no, everybody doesn’t have perfect memories. It’s just that they all consistently keep telling the same

story that disagrees with you.” That this is this is one witness against many. This is the biblical standard for

establishing things that we should believe is multiple witnesses.

All right, let’s go ahead and continue. I’m going to play a clip here and um and

then we’re going to see if it’s true. And you know, for people who say, “Well,

who’s the real Mike Brown? Who’s the real Dr. Brown?” There I didn’t publish any book in that

season, 2001. There’s um early 2002. There’s no there’s not a single article

I wrote then. There, in other words, it’s not like people look at it, they

throw your whole ministry into question. basically want to cancel everything you’ve done. But the person that I said

earlier, the one you heard preaching, teaching, that’s the real me. Yeah, that’s a let me just that’s just a

weird statement. Um, you know, I’m trying to figure out Yeah. What is he is he he’s worried here about people

who want to cancel everything he’s ever done? Because I don’t want to do that. Um, if if you’ve been ministered to

Yeah. If you’ve been ministered to by Mike Brown, hold on to that and rejoice in that. Thank God for that. And I’m glad that he was there ministering to

you in those ways. That’s wonderful. His work on answering Jewish Jewish objections to Jesus is still going to be

something because I don’t know what to replace it with. I’m still going to be like I feel like I still want to reference this, you know, as as a as a

good resource. Um I can’t recommend it the same way I could have before. I

can’t just be like, “Hey, here you go.” Because I’m like, “Oh, this is now attached to a person who is ongoingly denying and manipulating a part of a

cover a cover up culture.” But we we don’t need to undo everything he’s ever done. We That’s an exaggeration to to

try to straw man what what’s really going on. What what you don’t get to do is to say

uh this is the real me. That other people judge who the real you is. And

who the real you is. Um I don’t know that’s good English, but I know that my wife knows the realer me than most

people who hear me preach. Preaching is probably the thing I do best in this world. It’s a gift from God. It I

didn’t, you know, I didn’t train myself. God gave me a gift to be able to hopefully exposit his word and preach

the word and teach the word and build people up, but I’m doing the thing that he’s gifted me to do. The real me is,

you know, if I lose my temper or if I, you know, so to hear somebody say the real me is the one preaching is a

strange. Most people say the opposite, but that’s not the lie here. uh because

that’s subjective. There is a lie here and the lie here is he says he didn’t write anything. Yeah.

I didn’t write anything during that time. No articles and no publishing of books. Yeah. And as folks can see on the screen

um he did write a book. It is called revolution in the church challenging

religious systems with a call for radical change. So let’s just look at

the timeline. So Mike is saying that in that timeline 2001202 he did not write a

book but this book was published specifically I mean the date that is on Amazon.com is July 2002 which means it

would have been written over that exact period 2001 early part of 2002 in order

to be published in 2002 probably being finished right at the end of of 2001

and we know that it was written after 2001 had already in other words he could have Well, you know, I I actually wrote

it in 99, but because of the Revolution book, I I waited. You know, it was like the part two. The problem is in the

preface, it says this. On February 14th, 2001, in the leadership team for Fire

School of Ministry in Pensacola, Florida, was meeting with Derek Brown, a dear fellow worker from England. As we

were talking with Derek about our vision to see uh the Jesus revolution make an impact on our society, he made a simple

but profound comment. Before there can be revolution in society, there must be

revolution in the church. In other words, I got the idea to write this book

when Derek Brown made that comment which was February 14th, 2001. That means at

the very time that Mike is saying it was at the lowest point in his life that that it was a hellish financial burden.

Uh that he was making bad judgments that well at the time that he said I did not write a book.

He he wrote a book. After this I dug a little bit more and found on Dr. Brown’s website the lineof fire.org that it

records a list of his published works. In 2001 it records the revival answer book. in 2002, Revolution in the Church,

which was the Jul July 1st, 2002 book. And also in 2003 on March 1st, he

published Answering Jewish Objections to Jesus, volume 3. The previous volume was

published in 2000. All of this makes it very difficult to believe that he was not writing at the time.

And again, this is a minor. It’s not this is not a like a nobody’s dying over this lie. it it’s just another in a

pattern of his the the his defense is look I was so hurting and I was so

broken during that time that I didn’t and I write book you know he writes probably a book every year and he’s like

and did I write a book no except he did write a book during that time and if there’s an explanation you know Mike we

would we would certainly love to hear it but according to the book it was published on July 1st 2002

his book revol revolution came out on January 1st, 2000. So, it

would have been during that time, it seems.

You know, Mike, before we head in uh to the next point, I just want to say something about this this whole issue cuz, you know, and I know we’ve touched

on this. It could come across a little petty. Why are you still talking about this? It just seems that God is doing

something. And and I I’ve been meditating quite a bit on what is happening. I think a big part of it is

New Testament eldership is not doing its job. So, you have all these different figures and I won’t I could mention a

bunch of different names right now that are in the media uh where where people are saying, “Hey, you you did something

wrong. Unethical, maybe criminal um maybe immoral.” And so often these

individuals are submitted accountable to a 501c3 board. And we

don’t see that in scripture. We don’t see, you know, Paul saying to Timothy, now if there are accusations, make sure to go to the board, which are typically

friends of the the principal, you know, or his family members sometimes. And I

think that God is wanting to re-energize New

Testament eldership. So, in the situation that we’re talking about right now with Dr. Brown, you know, he was at

one time he was the apostolic leader or the senior leader of the fire movement. Uh but by the time all this came to

light, he was not even attending from what I understand on a regular basis their local church and or or was was in

any sub way type of submitted relationship to the leadership. And the problem is is that the grace to govern

these issues to speak into these issues is not with the 501c3 board. The average

501c3 board is not thinking, okay, we might have to deal with sexual immorality next month. But in New

Testament elership, that is thing, you know, 1 Corinthians 5, those are the

types of things that God has given grace and empowerment to New Testament eldership. So in so many of these cases,

the ones that you’re investigating right now, you’re you’re dealing with boards and not with elders. So, uh,

yeah, I’ve I’ve asked I’ve tried to get a hold of churches too for situations. Um, and sadly in in many of the

situations we’re talking about, the churches will not speak with me so that I could say I mean like won’t have a phone conversation and not not so I can

make a video just to talk. I just say, “Hey, can we just talk? I don’t need to make a video about what you say to me. I

just I have things that I want to bring to you for you to hold accountable this person that I I is at your church.” And

um I I rarely do this, but there’s times where I’ve done it and I can’t I called Steve Burgerer, who is the guy that uh

was harassing TC Cannon years years and years later and all this weird stuff.

And I I interviewed her and we played the clip where he publicly put her on blast. It’s still on their YouTube channel. I reached out to the to the

church three different ways. Please, can we can I just talk to somebody there about this? This is a problem. Okay,

that and you guys still have the video where he’s doing this. It’s still up. It shouldn’t be. Um, and uh, nobody will

even even talk to me. Well, that would be this is this is a failure of of their

eldership in their local church. It it’s it’s some kind of weird protection of the elite don’t even don’t even listen

even when there’s evidence that can be presented. So um that you’re right this goes on and then it’s even worse with

the 501c3 because when you have these ministries I mean churches are 501c3 too but what I mean

is when you have these ministries that mine are these parurch ministries that are multimedia focused which mine is

um it is so hard for board members to hold me accountable in the way that my local

church can. So I’m submitted to my local church my I’ve gone to my elders I am submitted to

you. I want you to know I want you to hold me accountable. If you see me do something publicly that you think is out of line, you can come and confront me on

that and I’m going to listen. I had that conversation with several of the elders just so they know that that window’s open. But you know what? These

knuckleheads we’re dealing with are never going to have those conversations with their elders. They’re going to surround themselves with yesmen. And

when that happens and you can’t get through the proper channels, you have to just go public

when it’s at least it’s a situation that requires it. you just have to go public because there’s no other option and that’s you know what what’s happening in

a lot of these cases. Yeah. Okay. So intermission over. Let’s continue with our our list here.

So now I want to talk about a fellow by the name of Mr. Those are not that’s not his name. Um and he was connected with

the fire movement um at at some point. So, he knew Mike Brown and he had heard

some of these rumors, I think, from a couple different students uh at fire school and he was concerned. And so, in

February 2024, he emailed Mike Brown and he said, “Mike,” and it was primarily

centered around uh the situation with Sarah, the handholding incident in the

in the um in the car, and then a meeting between Chris Bennett and Mike Brown

that happened in 2020. And I know we’ve talked about this, but I just want to refresh everyone’s memory. Uh Chris

Bennett was the young man who was in a car uh in 2002

that witnessed Mike Brown uh grabbing the hand of uh Sarah Monk, holding it

for several minutes, as many as 15 as as little as, you know, four or five depending on who who we believe. Um and

and then he saw them in a full frontal embrace that same evening when he was taking books out of the car. So, so as

he gets older, he is his conscience is bothering him and he’s he’s now a

40-year-old man and he has daughters and he he’s just thinking that’s that’s not right. So, he gets a hold of Sarah Monk

and see to see if she, you know, could shed any light on the situation. Okay.

So, that’s all I’ll say right now. But this this gentleman Mr. He knew that

there was this meeting between Chris Keith and and Mike Brown in 2020. So that would have been, you know, just

over five years ago. Um, and he also knew about the handholding incident. So let’s start there. So he calls Mike, uh,

rather he emails Mike and he says, um, uh, he lays out what he knows.

He’s very gentle, very nice. And, and Mike responds with this. Thanks for

reaching out. I really appreciate it. I’m sitting here with a big smile. Since

what you’ve heard is incredibly far from the truth, I’ll give you a call in a few minutes. Very glad to talk. I’m so glad

you came to me. So, you know, uh sitting with the, you know, if there was no

truth to it, then I could understand why he might be smiling. Of course, I would be I would be terrified um if if you

were talking about me in in those situations came up. So, uh he tells him he’s got this big smile and they’re

going to have this conversation. So, in the original actual email that he sent Mike, uh, you know, it was clearly a

mixed bag. It was not all true. Uh, but the way Mike responds to it is like it’s

not that big of a deal. I think this is a really good example of the kind of thing that happens a lot

with this whole situation that that Dr. Brown does. And that is there was some

stuff that wasn’t true in the email, some stuff that was true in the email, but the way that he responded was as

though it was it was a nothing burger. The whole the whole thing that part

Yeah. And that part is I’m smiling and all this. That part is he he’s putting up a front here. The reality is not

that. The reality is that this was significant. This is important. Uh that’s what the investigation concluded

that they said they would submit to and did not. That that’s certainly what multiple witnesses have reported. So,

this habit of I’ll grab on to, you know, whatever I can to spin into a conclusion

that ultimately isn’t accurate. So, uh, Mike, uh, they they talk on the phone and MR uh, records the phone call, which

was legal in the state of North Carolina. It’s a one party consent. So, let’s just go ahead and listen. You can

listen to the whole phone call online. It’s in the report. Uh, but we’ll listen to just a few clips. Anyway, so we’re

coming back from Alabama uh after having preached there uh and he and a bunch of

other grads came around. I don’t know, we had maybe seven, eight people in the van and uh we were sitting in the back

and I grabbed her hand. I said, you know, this is in front of everybody. I said, she’s like your daughter to me, you know, and I grabbed her hand. So

that’s the scandal. That’s it was stupid in retrospect. It was absolutely stupid

to do it. um because she wasn’t my daughter. No, it’s interesting about that, Mike,

is that he says that’s the scandal. That’s it’s always, you know, let’s play downplay that’s the scandal. You know,

that’s not the scandal. It’s not the scandal. And in the interview with with Heather Shot, he

says the scandal is that he touched her butt. Uh the very worst thing, and this is like the infamous

Yeah. scandal. This is the thing. Uh, a few times when she walked away from my desk,

I gave her a backhanded SWAT on her behind. I This is amazing to have to tell the whole world this,

but he doesn’t mention that to Mr. because MR doesn’t know about that. So,

uh, you know, he’s minimizing and the facts of what he shared based on what we

know now are are are not the real facts. So, in that he says that he was in a

van. Uh, they were not in a van, that they were sitting in the back of a van. No, he was actually driving his own Jeep

Cherokee and um and there were not seven or eight people. And I imagine he he

says there’s seven or eight people because it makes it look, you know, the more people it was innocent. No big deal. I just grabbed her hand. But he

didn’t grab her hand. He he actually held her hand. There’s a difference between that. Technically, to hold

someone hand to hold someone’s hand, you would have to grab it. Um, but it makes

it seem like he grabbed it, let it go, when in fact, by all accounts, he held it from anywhere from 5 to 15 minutes.

And to be clear, that was without her consent. Um, you know, this is all this is huge. This is huge because it has to

do with the pattern of spin, damage control. This is the culture of cover up

when you’re seeing behind the scenes that different depending on who you talk to, the conversation is different. How

much do you know? that’s how much I will have to spend. Mhm. Whatever you don’t know doesn’t exist.

And that has been the consistent pattern. Uh it’s it’s it’s dishonest.

Yeah. And if we knew nothing else other than this one thing, just um imagine this. A 46-year-old bigger than-l life

leader of a revival movement now fire school, fire church, just out of the blue without consent, without warning,

takes your hand in front of other people and holds it for 5 to 15 minutes. Uh I

can imagine what’s going through Sarah’s mind, how how strange this must have been for her.

Yeah. Uh but but again, the whole way it’s explained is is not the way it happened.

So let’s continue. Like we would, you know, she’d grab me and give me a hug. I do. But it’s always

around other people. So uh again, this this idea that we heard shared over and over again in in

this phone call in his the Heather shot. It’s always around other people. Always around other people. Um but but it

wasn’t um always around other people. As we’ve already already stated, when Chris got back to the office that day and was

unloading books, he sees the two of them alone in a full frontal embrace that

this is a married man, 46-year-old and 20-year-old staffer hugging each other, um presumably alone. And then there’s

another very troubling story that that has corroboration which was in New York

City. And again, it’s so uncomfortable talking about I wish, you know, I would so much rather he talk about this and

just be honest about it. Uh I hate that we have to do this, but uh they’re in

New York City. His wife is driving the car. He’s in the passenger seat and there’s four staffers in the back seat

and it’s a ministry trip. Sarah is pushed up against the right door in the

back. Mike is in the passenger seat and she feels suddenly she feels her pant leg being tugged upon and it’s Mike

reaching back behind, you know, behind the seat tugging on her pant leg. So she

grabs his hand by now by this time they they’ve held hands on many occasions and according to Sarah the only time it was

public the only time was in that car uh every other time which he said was many

times uh was private. And then the two of them And then the two of them hold hands

while they’re driving while while his wife is driving around New York City and there’s six people in the car. And what

what they did not know at the time is that the young lady sitting next to Sarah saw it. She, you know, they

thought they were hiding it. And and by the way, when you do things like this, you you lose your sound judgment. And it

was not sound judgment to hold her hand like that. But this other young lady whom I’ve talked to who has told me her

testimony, she said, “I looked down. I saw them holding hands and um so it it

wasn’t always in private.” And again, Mike’s own words to Heather Shod, quote, “Her office was not far from mine. She

would come over, give me a big hug. That’s not public. That’s private.”

Right? And I I want to acknowledge one other small thing, but it’s an important thing. It’s the deflection of she would

hug me in his description of what happened. She hugged me. It’s it’s her.

She’s the initiator. This is pretty common for the times that I’ve seen him interact on this stuff. Uh unless you

know that he initiated things. He’ll speak as though someone else did. And that was also the way he dealt with the

uh the letters in the desk and the correspondence with that woman. Um he initially made it sound to some

witnesses as though it was her initiating it with him and he was just responding somehow, you know,

right? And as we and we’re going to see that in a text message that he sent to a pastor in December of 2024 after this

became public and it’s a similar thing, but I won’t I won’t share it now. So, uh continuing on in their phone

conversation, Keith and another guy came to me and said, “Was there anything going on with

you and her? anything ever happened? I said, “What are you talking about?” I said, “What you saw was what happened.

It was always in front of people, you know, just that.” And um so they called, they did an investigation, they called her, she was

laughing like, “What are you talking about?” So we we already talked about this earlier in one of the earlier points,

but he’s referring to uh Keith Collins and Nils Prep. Niels got fired for that conversation because he did not believe

sufficiently enough. But again, it’s that same thing. What you saw is what happened cuz everything was done in

public except meeting in a car alone at night many nights according to Sarah is

is another example of not in public and um we won’t continue with that one since

we already talked about it. A grad in in um in North Carolina a few

years ago it struck him as his kids were getting older like well that was just wrong. She was you know in in the van with us.

He reached out to her and she went over, you know, everything that happened, told him nothing sexual, romantic, here’s the

nature of this and that, etc. Okay, this is one of the more egregious uh misdirection. Again, there’s truth to

it, but it’s not the truth. So, he’s referring to Chris Bennett. We talked about that earlier. Chris Bennett was

was in the car, saw him holding hands. 18 years later, it’s bothering him. So, he contacts Sarah. And the way Mike just

explained it right there is that Sarah set him straight. nothing sexual, nothing romantic. Uh, except that’s not

what she said. And I I want to go through her um uh some of these text messages. Okay. So, in the first text

message, again, what Mike is saying is that she set him straight regarding the relationship. And you will hear Mike say in the Heathershot interview and in

almost every interview he’s done is that Sarah said nothing sexual or romantic

took place. That is not true. Sarah did say that it was not sexual, meaning they were not in a bed, but certainly there

were certain things that were sexual, you know, touching uh one’s rear end, etc. But she never said that it wasn’t

romantic. And Mike repeats that over and over and over again. You all these text messages are public. They’re on the

internet. And you go see if you can find any place that Sarah says that they were not romantic. So let’s just read through

this first text. Hey Chris, it’s been a long time. the relationship we had

between her and Dr. Brown. At first, I felt as a fatherdaughter, but that was

not how it ended. Nothing sexual happened, but it was not what a married

man and a single female should ever have. So, no, this is not her setting

Chris straight that nothing happened. She says, “I I left on my own accord and

I’ve had no contact in about 11 or 12 years. I did not want to be there any longer and I had to leave. I knew I had

to leave. Mr. Cava, who’s one of the leaders, called me up after I left and asked me questions along with uh the

other woman that we talked about earlier, who she supposedly laughed, never laughed, um skipping down a a

little bit, I let others know that there was an inappropriate relationship uh that occurred and I decided to leave,

but never said with who. In other words, she protected Dr. Brown. She made it seem like it was with a student. I know

that cuz she’s told me privately. You and I were friends during our time in Pensacola. So, I feel I owe you the

entire truth. It is hard. Now, now, by the way, for all these people who are calling her a false victim, you have to

understand Sarah, at the time she wrote this in 2020, she wasn’t running around saying she was a victim. She blamed

herself. And and and she has never once said that she uh had no uh uh no fault.

I would say that. I don’t think she had any fault but but this is what she says. It is hard to think about uh this

because I feel betrayed but also shameful. I know I was wrong. I left God

after I left and over the years I’ve tried to come back. So in that first text message, it’s pretty clear that she

is not saying nothing to see here. She’s saying it wrecked my life. I left there

broken, backsliden, and what we had started off as fatherdaughter, but it

ended up in something that a married man should never have with a single female.

Here’s the thing. Often where I think the lie is in the conversations I’ve had

and heard from Michael Brown on this particular topic is not just in the

words that are said, but in the belief that is created in the mind of the person hearing him. And so, yeah, okay,

you could go back and try to argue that those words, in some cases, they’re obviously totalized. Other times, it’s

like technically technically you can defend what you said, the words you said, but you can’t defend the belief

you created in the mind of the person, right? And that’s where it’s misleading. It’s like, okay, yeah, you made them believe

something that wasn’t true, and you could be like, well, it wasn’t romantic. Let’s argue about the meaning of the word romantic. But the belief you

created, just to be clear, just to be clear, there’s nowhere in those texts where she says it wasn’t romantic. She says it

wasn’t sexual, right? No, I’m just saying Michael Brown could argue about the definition of the

word romantic, and we could spend an hour doing that. Instead, let’s ask about the belief that

was created in the mind of the person he’s on the phone with. That guy’s now believing something that’s not true because of the words you used.

Exactly. And why not say, “Hey, let me send these text messages to you.” and you can read them in their entirety. Uh

rather than give you this idea that Sarah was setting him straight, that nothing happened because as you’re going

to see, Mike, nothing could be further from the truth. So, she goes on to say, “Can I say I honestly cannot believe I’m

telling you this. This has been my secret for almost 20 years.” So, she’s

told nobody, everybody who’s asked her about this, she by her own admission has lied about it to protect Mike. also

understanding that you know who’s going to believe her o over him. So continuing

uh and folks you can these will be on your screen. When I read your message I took a deep breath. This is Sarah

talking to Chris. I took a deep breath and thought I would tell you the same story that I told others. But for

whatever reason I decided it had been long enough. I really hope this helps you Chris with whatever you are dealing

with and you can move forward stronger. So what we’re seeing here is that she is

telling a story that she has not told in 18 years. She’s telling the truth about what happened to her. So when Mike says

he wrote to my leadership back in November, she’s a demonstrably false witnesses witness whose story just

constantly changing. That is not true. She told one story early on which she

admits she was lying about. And then in 22 when Chris came to her and said, “Was

there more to that?” She says, “I can’t believe I’m going to tell you, but I I’m finally gonna tell the truth.” In the next text, Chris asks her point blank.

He says, “Did you guys have other inappropriate contact besides the hands

holding hands?” And she responds, “He did. I never did.” And that’s interesting because as you noted, Mike,

it’s constantly, you know, her she was affectionate with me. I was responding to her affection. Not true. And as we we

stated earlier, he has admitted to touching her butt, which obviously could

not have been her being the aggressor. Him he’s admitted to kissing her forehead, and it there’s no way that she

could have been the aggressor in that. So he she writes back, “He did. I never did. He would hit my butt as I would

walk by, but that was it. He would kiss the top of my head at first, then it was my cheek.” in the next text and we’re

we’re jumping through these. Um, but I’m just showing you her narrative in 2020,

the first time she’s she’s telling anyone. So, it made me feel uncomfortable when

he would hold my hand. But my dad was never affectionate. So, I thought, well, okay. Then I soon realized it was wrong

and not what it should be. Uh, about two months after I left, and she goes back

to the phone call with John Cava, Mr. Kava called and asked if we had an inappropriate inappropriate relationship

or something along that lines and I lied. I said no. Meaning yes, we did

have an inappropriate relationship but I didn’t tell him. So what and and she knew it at the time. This is

important as far as the memory reconstruction garbage that she knew at the time she was lying. She didn’t say I

later realized it was inappropriate. She knew when she was she was she was she was coming to

understand that particularly after she found the notes in uh in Mike’s nightstand about his relationship with

Kim. U but that was you know 20 something years ago. This was not something that happened when you got a hold of her or

whatever. Yeah. Right. Exactly. Exactly. So um so she said no that it was not

inappropriate and she said she lied. Mike called me and let me know that he would be calling and asking questions.

Now, why would you let her know? Why would you feel the need to let her know if it was at the worst it was overly

friendly? I can’t remember from something else that we’re we’re quoting where he said that the only thing she

could have said I was overly friendly. Um, but he felt the need to warn her that John Cavo was calling. I had

thought I needed to tell someone while I was there, but it would have been my word against his. I didn’t feel anyone

would believe me. He covered everything up with Kim. No one knew. So, who would

say he couldn’t make them believe his word? His word over hers. Chris, you saw

what you saw and you knew it was not right. You did the right thing with going to another leader. Hang on. Going

to another leader. I’m sorry that you were not believed. And so, this is referring to Chris going to Keith

Collins. And then Keith and Niels go to Mike. And I don’t know if we mentioned it earlier, but then Mike goes back to

Chris and and gently, but rebukes him for for not using Matthew 18. And and

I’ll say it again, when we’re talking about a leader potentially being involved in sexual sin, it’s not Matthew

18, it’s first Timothy 4 5:19 where accusations are brought to elders. Uh

but but the the point that I want to make here, we have one more text, is

that he’s trying to get Mr. to believe that these text messages were

meant to say, “No, Chris, you’re wrong. Nothing happened.” He takes one little sentence out of there, adds a word,

romantic. She said nothing, nothing sexual, nothing romantic ever happened. She never says nothing romantic ever happened. In fact, she she implies that

something romantic happening. And he is trying to create in the mind of Mr. that

Sarah is Sarah and Mike are are together in that nothing happened when that is

not the truth. Right. Right. Although it was she was with him previously but she was lying

and now she’s telling the truth and that’s what that’s what’s changed. What’s changed is she’s now she’s now openly telling the truth about it.

Yeah. Yes. And then she final thing I read. She said, “Chris, I know for a fact that he had another inappropriate

relationship with a woman at Brownsville. This is about when I started realizing I had to leave.” So,

she finds the notes in the in the desk and she confronts him and realizes that this is not a healthy place for me. This

is when I realized I uh started realizing I had to leave. I did confront him and showed him the notes I found at

his house while I was housesitting for him. He admitted it and I had a talk with him and Nancy, his wife. They said

I was basically representing the entire student body and asked for forgiveness.

I said okay and never spoke of it to anyone. There was nothing in the journal

about a sexual affair more uh them talking and fantasizing about it. So uh

Mike is trying to get Mr. to believe that uh Sarah’s defending him when in

fact nothing could be further from the truth. She actually exposes him uh in in both his actions towards her and this

other issue with with a woman that we we now know as Kim. This is the same um

meeting that he denies happened, right? Where where the you know she was being asked forgive me on behalf of the

student body. He says that never happened. That’s that no, they never requested that. They never asked for that.

Well, it depends. It depends who what meeting. So, when Chris confronts him uh

later on in 2020, he just says he he can’t recall. He doesn’t recall a meeting like that. Um and that does that

doesn’t really anybody knows Dr. Michael Brown knows that he has a memory like steel. Um you know, things are never

fuzzy. Uh but but but in later in later uh you know when others brought this to

me he said it never happened. Yeah. I’ve seen him adamantly deny it. So yeah and here’s at the end of the day he

has lied to me. Yeah. Well me too. We we we started this this program with

point number one where he said to me that the charges were false and and and I within two or three days I realized

they weren’t false. So Sarah has never lied to me. I have no reason not to believe her. Mhm.

Uh and she there’s no why would she make this up? There’s nothing to be gained uh by having this story out.

Not only is it strange to make up, it’s it it sounds real. The thing is the story has the ring of truth to it. Okay.

Yes, you are obviously dealing with the situation which the the next rational

moral step is to tell people, you know, where you go, hey, we we need I need to

be held accountable for this. And so you have her here. She already knows to silence this moment. Will you forgive me

on behalf of all the people I don’t want to know about this? It’s just it’s just it’s just like a total

it’s a total move that would happen in in a cover up environment. That’s that’s exactly what would happen.

Yeah. And this is months before when when Nils Prep did not sufficiently believe Mike that Mike and Nancy called

him up that night and and said, “You’re trying to bring down the ministry.” So it does seem that a lot of effort is is

is being used to protect the ministry rather than to fully come clean over

what happened. Okay. So the the phone call goes continues. He said, “Hey, it ends here, you know,

walked out.” Okay. So he’s talking about his meeting with Chris, he’s telling Mr. uh about

his meeting with Chris Bennett. And at the end of his meeting with Chris Bennett, he saying that that Chris was

satisfied. you know, hey, uh you the text messages uh show that Sarah had no

issue. It wasn’t romantic. It wasn’t sexual. And um and uh uh I’m sorry, what

was it? It ends here. It ends here. You know that that first of all, that’s not what Chris said. Let me read to you um

from the the Firefly report. Chris grew increasingly frustrated by Brown’s

vague, evasive answers. Toward the end of the meeting, Brown asked if Chris was

satisfied. Chris responded, “No, because you don’t remember anything.” Unsure of

what to do next, Chris told both Brown and Keith, quote, “I wash my hands of

it.” Now, that is very different than it ends here like, “I’m satisfied.” It it it’s the exact so misleading

because this is this is a perfect example of what I mean. He could argue all day long. Well, he

washed his hands of it. So, he was done with it. So, it ended there. He could argue for that all he wants. But everybody listening knows you lied.

Okay. You you used words to manipulate the way somebody was thinking to give them a wrong belief. It ends here

implies it ended resolved because there was nothing to worry about in the end once the truth came out. And the reality

is it was it was the opposite. It was he was only more convinced that something

wrong had happened after this after this call. I’ve actually talked to Chris uh when I was first looking into this months ago, me and him just on our own.

We had a whole conversation and yeah, he was he was he was shocked to find out that that Mike represented it as though

him and Chris were on good terms over these issues. And by the way, what what the quote that

Mike gave was, “It ends here.” Like, I’m satisfied. But I washed my hands of it was a non-leader saying to a leader,

I’ve I’ve done everything I can do. You know, for I I 18 years ago I confronted this. Now I’m confronting it again.

You’re you don’t remember anything. And he says that he says I I wasn’t satisfied. Whereas Mike portrays him to

Mr. as being satisfied. And um okay, let’s continue. And because I’ve so

tried to set a godly example, I actually I actually broke down cry says, “Man,

I’m sorry I let you down because like it did it hurt him.” So So Mike is concerned now about Chris.

It hurt. Chris is hurt and and and Mike begins to cry and because he tried to set an example and and and

I I asked Chris for a response to that and this is Chris’s verbatim response. quote, “As for meeting with Mike Brown,

at one point he did start to apologize with a few tears, but I cut him off and

I told him that the entire student body, missionaries, etc. needed to hear the conversation we were having. As soon as

I stopped him, the tears stopped. It was not a long apology with tears and

weeping or whatever. It was short and it had no effect on me because I was

thinking about the students in the sin. After knowing the full story from Ry, I see that he was only apologizing for the

things he was confronted with. So, so Chris is saying, “No, it I was not this,

you know, wounded guy coming and he cries and he’s feeling about me.” Chris stopped him. He said, “Stop crying. This

is a conversation that needs to come to light. You know, you led a movement and

and everyone else needs to know about it.” it. But I can tell you as someone who spoke to Mike uh you know the last

time in late October, he did not want this to ever become public. But as you

can see, a lot of people knew about it. Chris actually took notes of the the meeting with Mike Brown immediately,

sent them to Sarah the next day, and he’s telling Sarah he Mike admitted to all these things. So So I contact Mike

in October and he says not, you know, these are false allegations. Uh but when Chris confronted him with evidence in

2020, 5 years ago, he admitted to everything and and some things he could not uh remember which was again why

Chris wasn’t satisfied. So um just you know I know you’ve heard a lot about Walmart but just one more clip on on

that because this was like I said in public y like if I ran into her at Walmart I put my arm around her but it was like

intentionally in front of everyone. That’s you know so that was the foolish thing like yeah

it can look bad. It’s not good judgment. So that was just kind of the burnout after the split

for sure. That’s that’s what greeds me the most. Like that was just a stupid thing to do. It doesn’t look right. But I stupidly

made sure that anything like that was around other people.

So he so so Mr. doesn’t know any of the backstory. So you know, he’s learning from Mike. So Mike now now we know we’ve

watched the Heathershot interview where he says that he would meet her at Walmart. It was scheduled. He may have said it was her idea. We know from Sarah

it was his idea. We know that they would sit alone in a park car on a regular basis. But he’s telling Mr. quote, “If I

ran into her at Walmart, that you know that that is not what

happened. You made plans to meet her at Walmart.” But then he says, “If I plan to meet her, I’m sorry, if I ran into

her Walmart, I’d put my arm around her.” So, uh, all very strange. Yeah, this is the the

fact that he brings up Walmart as the example off the top of his head. You know, some will think I’m going out on a

limb here. I think it’s pretty obvious that this is most likely coming from the fact that there were Walmart incidents

he was aware of and he was trying to minimize those and so he grabs that as the example. But yeah, everything about

it was false. You didn’t run into each other. You didn’t just put your arm around her. You didn’t do it actually in public. You did it in a parking lot,

which is not what we all call public. This is not what we mean. When we when you say public, you mean around people

you who know you, right? Not strangers. If if I if I go do

something fishy in a bar with some woman, I could say it’s in public, but if nobody knows me there, it’s not

really. Hey everybody, Ron Caner uh jumping in real quick here. We had left out a clip and you know, Mike and I felt that it

was uh very pertinent. So, I just want to play it for you real quick. This is Dr. Dr. Brown talking to MR, but he’s

talking about his meeting with Chris Bennett when when Chris asked about why uh these things were not disclosed to

other leaders. So, let’s uh go ahead and hear that. And he said, “Yeah, but you should have talked to all the leaders back then.” I

said, “Well, I talked to the guys, my closest friend, my pastor.” I I can’t make exactly out what Dr.

Brown is saying there, but it seems like he’s saying that he did disclose this to the guys, and the guys would be the

other elders. um Josh Peters, Bob Gladstone, um Keith Collins, uh uh John

Cava, and and and and others. And then he said he disclosed it to his pastor, his closest friend. Um I believe I know

who he’s talking about, and I’m not going to say his name, but that gentleman was not the pastor at the

time. In fact, Mike was the pastor. Mike was the senior leader. Uh the person he’s referring to is the one that was

sworn to silence, and that was his assistant at the time. uh when they moved to Charlotte, he became the pastor

and very effective one. Um but at the time he was not an elder. He was not in

that in in that realm of leadership by his own admission. And so for Mike to

portray this now 20 something years later to MR as if this fellow was his

pastor uh is not accurate because of two reasons. Number one, this gentleman only

later would become the pastor of fire, but even then that was an within an apostolic network and Mike was the

senior leader of that network. So I don’t think he again I could be wrong here and Dr. Brown can correct the error

the the record but as far as I understand that gentleman good guy wonderful man was never Mike Brown’s

pastor. In addition, the this was never disclosed to the guys, the elders. That

is the issue. That is the very issue that I brought up with Mike back in October is that you should have shared

this with the elders. And and he did not. And and again, he’s telling uh MR

this in 2024, but he told Heather shot in 2025

why he did not tell the elders. So he is now admitting publicly that he did not

tell the guys but Mr. who had no way really of investigating and finding out. It was a very quick way to you know

again in my opinion to to end this. Yeah I told the elders I told the guys I told

uh uh my pastor you know my my my closest friend but none of that is true.

So you know that’s more or less his phone call with Mr. and again you can listen to the whole thing in the online

brownwitness.com. Uh it’s just so you know when I heard that it was just stunning to me uh

having known now you know investigated and read the investigation and um

he was dishonest. He was dishonest with the with this gentleman very much dishonest with that’s the

consistent pattern.

Uh continuing uh and again what we’re doing here is here is detailing u for

lack of a better word lies falsehoods that were told in order uh you know Mike

you keep mentioning this culture of cover up um so in December this is pastor Matt not his real name but he is

a megaurch pastor uh somewhere in the United States. So, at that time, Mike

was reaching out to a lot of different people uh through voice texts, through uh text messages, email, phone calls,

and he was pleading his case. He was telling his story, his narrative. And so, one of those uh Pastor Matt sent me

the text message that Mike sent him. And in it are are several I mean, there’s

just no other word, lies. So, Mike, and this is written in mid December. This is

after Mike had just published a video uh a video where he talked about his

relationship with Kim and referred to it as an emotional tie. He referred to it to me as a sinful uh an unhealthy and

sinful soul tie. Um, and so he makes this video which most people who saw it

were very confused by it because it was meant to be very transparent, you know, for the sake of full disclosure and and

it it was hard to really know what he was saying. Uh, here’s the text message. I can only respond privately, not

publicly. But I 100% reject the details of Sarah’s account, the kissing on the

lips, most specifically. And her story changed dramatically from

4 and a half years ago when she shared everything with a grad. And that account of hers mirrors mine. Let’s stop right

there. So he says that Sarah’s story from four and a half years ago matched

his story. Now, we just read that those were the text messages that we just read where she described being hit on the

butt, kissed on the forehead, on the cheek, where she talks about um the fact that Mike and Nancy sat her down and had

her forgive Mike for his indiscretions with Kim, which was an erotic verbal uh

phone and and text message relationship.

and and and she she was some sort of representative forgiveness and uh so

that’s what she details in that and so Mike is saying that her story has dramatically changed in in the past four

and a half years and I can tell you that the story she told me in late October

2024 it matched exactly what she told Chris in those text messages. There was

only one detail that was different and that was when she said that she he would

kiss her on the lips. One day she walked into his office. Her habit was to say goodbye to Mike at the end of the day.

They worked together in the same office. She would come into his office and and give him a hug and then she would go home. And this time she walks into his

office. He’s sitting down and she goes over to hug him. And she said he puckers his lips. And so

they kissed a peck and then that became the tradition, you know, in addition to

a a a a hug, there was a a peck at the end of the day and also when she would

leave his car at in those Walmart rendevous. That is the only thing that has changed. So when he says her story

changed dramatically from 4 and a half years ago, that is a lie. It did not change dramatically at all. Only one

detail. I I want to add this is something he also said to me. This was part of the basis of why I started

digging into this more because he pulls me aside at the ETSs and he was like, “Yeah, she’s totally changed. Her

recollection is totally different now. She’s remembering things she didn’t even remember before.” And and then that led

to the claims, the false claims about getting memory reconstruction therapy. And um

this to me that this is very egregious because what you’re doing is you’re grabbing influential leaders like this

megaurch pastor or or me. You know, I’m I’m influential whe and some people like

that and some people hate that. I find it very intimidating, but I want to be faithful with it. And

and you’re lying to us so that you can lie to the masses.

This is a this is a massive cover up when you start involving all these different players to try to tell your

story. And he did this with Mercy Culture when he went on their podcast and they participated and they’re culpable because there’s tons of

evidence that they ignored when they brought him on. They’re they’re they’re not just being lied to. They’re participating in the lie at this stage.

Um there’s something seriously wrong with Mercy Culture and the leadership there to do this and then reject

everybody who has gone to them and said, “Please stop. Please re look at the evidence. Look at all the witness testimonies.” and they reject it all

because of their spiritual elitism and their their pride. I’m just going to call it like it is. It’s it’s a it’s

dangerous and I guarantee you there is a world of issues over there that are not yet dealt with. But um uh but yeah,

that’s that’s the level of it’s not just oh in text he said something that wasn’t true. You have to see it as part of the

story. No, it’s it’s a strategy. This is a a goal to reach influential people to get

them to spread a narrative. And then you know there is the text message with uh with Joel Richardson where Mike reaches

out to Joel Richardson a a well-known author uh on end times and uh he is

concerned it appears because uh Joel who doesn’t hold back had said some things online about this and he’s reaching out

to Joel privately in a text message trying to get him to to take down you know what he has written and Joel did

not respond um as he anticipated. So again, it is a campaign of dishonesty to

to spread a false narrative. And so he goes on here and he says, “Nancy, his wife, has been furious to read these new

accounts, but there are no new accounts. The account of 2020 is identical to the

account of 2024 with the exception of one detail.” And and you say, “Well, why

would she say that now? Why would she say now that he’s kissing her on the lips?” and she didn’t say it. Listen,

understand she has not told anybody this in for 18 years. It’s been her secret. And I have interviewed uh survivors of

of uh clergy sexual abuse. And most of them will go decades longer than uh

Tammy Woods 40 years before she understood that she was a victim and began uh to to speak out about it. So,

this is very normal behavior. Imagine going to a swimming pool and you’re you’re debating whether or not to jump

into that pool. And so what do you do? You do what everybody does. You put your foot in the water and you see how cold

it is. So when she shared with Chris Bennett in 2020, she left out the most

agreed and probably the most embarrassing thing just the idea of let me please let me add into this because

I’m I’m uh I’m no longer certified because I haven’t kept my certification up, but I I was for years a certified

domestic violence counselor. I was working with the state. I had guys who were convicted of committing DV,

domestic violence, and they would sit in on classes for 52 weeks with me. One of the things that you’ll see in training

as you’re dealing with domestic violence, as is a well-known fact, anytime someone talks about abuse that

they have experienced, they usually understate it. So, if a woman comes to you, usually it’s women, you comes to

you and says, “This is what happened dot dot dot.” You are trained to assume there was more that she’s not ready to

talk about yet. That is the normal thing you’re taught to assume. And it is a and it’s taught you’re taught to assume it

because people have worked with so many victims. They learn this the same as you have that this is industry. This is just

known. Yes. She she didn’t share everything. And they usually don’t. Anytime a woman tells me he he hit me,

I’m thinking there’s probably a lot more to it than just that. Um and it just takes time and sometimes they never

share. um that that that’s very common. Even when they do share a bunch, they hold back this other thing because it’s

just so embarrassing and so debasing or just hard. And so that’s that’s that’s

totally normal. This isn’t fabricating anything. We would you agree then that the fact that she only left out one detail is

surprising. Like normally you would expect her to leave out more details. You would have I I think that had to do

with where she was at 20 years later. You know, this was almost 20 years later. So when she talked to Chris that she had a lot of time to build up and

then she had all this time after he asked before she responded. So I think she it’s surprising that she shared as

much as she did at at that at that moment. Yeah. Okay. So uh couple more things in this text. He says to Pastor

Matt, “I have wanted to do this video since September 13th when I first learned that people and the Royy’s

report were gunning for me. This is what I’ve wanted to say for months now with my board agreeing that the time was the

ti I’m sorry. This is what I’ve wanted to say for months now. With my board agreeing that the time was now, right?

Uh the problem with that is um he told me the exact opposite. So he’s talking

about making the video and again the video’s been taken down so it it it couldn’t have been that great. Um, but

in that video, he’s trying without getting too much into detail to explain

that yes, he had an emotional affair, adultery of the heart, as he explains it to the investigator with Kim. And when I

met with Mike or via email uh 6 weeks before that, his words to me were the

exact opposite of that. When I I urged him, I said, “Mike, these are this is not nothing. This is something. It’s

it’s not it’s not the worst thing in the world. And I told him, I don’t think it’s a careerending sin, but you you

didn’t handle it right. You you should have handled it with a group of elders, with a group of leaders. And I said, um,

the best thing you can do now is to get it out in the light. And he said to me, the only thing that could even be

considered abuse is what he did to Sarah. The other issue, meaning the relationship with Kim, we will not talk

about it. He was adamant that nobody needs to know. And and I understand why that is the more embarrassing one. That

was the more overtly sexual relationship. Um even if it wasn’t physical, but he’s telling this pastor

that when he first heard about it, he wanted to tell he wanted to go out and make a video and and for something

restrained him. But again, that’s not what he told me. But he also says that his board his board said now is the

right time. What he doesn’t tell Pastor Matt is that he did not tell his board about his relationship with Kim or or

Sarah for that matter. So se September 13th is the day he found out that the

Royy’s report were considering running an article about this. It is October

25th before he discloses to his board. And when he discloses to his board, he

only tells them about Sarah because again, the issue with Kim is more embarrassing and it’s more overtly

sexual and and yeah, it will embarrass other people. So the idea that his board

has been with him this entire time and saying, you know, now is the right time, now is not the right time. It again, he

I can only tell you what he said to me and to two other people, uh, one of whom was a board member. We will not talk

about the relationship with Kim. Um, and then the last His board is His board has changed too,

right? Since this all began. Yeah. I I don’t I don’t know who’s on his board anymore. I can tell you that

everyone who was on his board on October 25th, 2024 is no longer on his board. I

don’t know who the chairman of the board is. I don’t know. Uh the the only last thing I heard was that Raleigh

Washington was his spokesman and that seemed quite short-lived. Yeah, maybe. I don’t I mean Rally, he’s

the one he put he pointed me to to find out about the the the the failed promise

of having a um a uh trauma-informed counselor who was going to help create

accountability, not be there to counsel Mike Brown like he claims in the in the video, but to be there to create

accountability, which is the claim that they did make. It’s on their website and I’ve checked the Wayback Machine and I’ve seen it. It’s there. Yeah. And and and we we should talk

about that briefly. Let me finish the this text here and then maybe we could just talk about that because I was in

those discussions. But let me finish up on the text message to Pastor Matt. That being said, my actions back then were

idiotic and inappropriate. Responding to the constant daughter-like

affection of Sarah. Now, the pro same same garbage, same deflection.

she’s the active agent and he’s merely reacting that this is you see the patterns when you start putting all

these things together that is dishonest. And what does he confess to? I put my arm around her. I touched her rear end

several times. I kissed her forehead. Uh I I grabbed her hand or held her hand.

So all these actions are the only thing that she uh has done that I know of is that at the end of the day she would go

and give him a hugby. Well, and and and people have to understand that um I know

this is a touchy point for individuals, but the fact is he’s the spiritual leader. He’s also the older man. He’s

also married. He’s also the male in the relationship. And all of those factors weigh into this to say you have a

certain responsibility. And deflecting things onto her revictimizes the person

who you have already failed and and wounded. Um, and so this is always the

case when when when people don’t want to be accountable, they inevitably create more wounds for the people they’ve

already hurt because you have to somebody has to be in the er in error here. Someone’s got to be the bad guy

and so I’ve got to make them the bad guy. He threw Kim under the bus with for years over these issues with people

whoever confronted him and he’s throwing Sarah under the bus and continues to and my heart goes out to to him to be

honest. I care about Mike Brown. do absolutely care for him and um but that compassion

I feel for him and the tears that he has that I think are genuine tears um but

everybody can cry um Peter can cry after he after he betrays Jesus it doesn’t

make it better and so that’s those tears they should be a godly sorrow that leads to repentance otherwise it’s the wrong

kind of tears and and what we’ve seen through throughout all these communications is

uh you know evading responsibility deflect ing responsibility, her her

constant affection towards me and and and then with Kim, you know, she said something, she wrote something, I saved

it in case I was ever uh accused of anything. Um, and by the way, Ray’s testimony,

which was powerful and and I mean, heart-wrenching, would have never come

out if if Mike had not said that about Kim. if he just said, you know, yeah,

there was something written down and let’s leave it at that. But by making her the the the the culprit,

uh that’s why Rey came forward and uh and his words were powerful,

which he told me the reason why he said those things about her is to protect

her. I kid you not. And I I we we spent a while talking

about this. I was like, “This, no, what you did protected you and it threw her under the bus. That’s what happened.” But he just kept insisting. He he he was

bound by secrecy and a promise to them that he couldn’t say more. And I was like, “Well, the only thing you said

defended yourself and attacked her. That’s all you said. So, this is no protection at all.” It’s the same

pattern of behavior, right? So, so regarding the the

trauma-informed counselor, we were quite upset at the end of this process because

uh the Elder Accountability Board was supposed to have a trauma-informed counselor that never would have allowed

them to change uh sexually abusive misconduct to leadership misconduct. Uh they they would have understood the

impact that would have on the victim and how wrong that would be. Mhm. Uh

and and then Mike in the video, uh maybe we can play that clip, but Mike in the

video says that the trauma informed counselor was for him because he’s the victim. He is a he is going through a

trauma and and that’s why even as he goes back into ministry, he I will play the listen, I’m going to do

this all and everybody will see on screen right now. This is the promise they made. You will see on screen that

in text in in official statements on their website, the trauma-informed counselor was there to provide

accountability and oversight not to counsel Dr. Brown. That this was done at the request of Ron Cancer and others on

in the on the victim’s side because they wanted that person involved. Later, this person, who knows who they were or what

they did, uh in reality, um I’ll bet you there’s a story there behind the scenes, but Mike Brown then goes on Mercy

Culture podcast and makes this false claim. And I’ll play that clip now. That’s right. So on the accountability team was to be

a traumainformed counselor for me and for because of this trauma. That’s

what it was for. And I did get counseling and I’m still getting it. And I know that’s why even stepping back

into ministry step at a time because I know there’s still wounds to be healed.

So that’s a lie. It was not for him to get personal counseling because of his

trauma. That’s not right. Yeah. I was in those negotiations, you know. So, let’s go back now to uh

December. Uh we formed an ad hoc board. And it is interesting if you watch that whole three three-hour three and a half

hour video. He talks about Ron and others. And there’s a reason he said Ron and others. Well, number one, for time sake, it’s it’s much shorter. But the

others would show that there is a group of people that were very close to him. The others were Bob Gladstone, probably

the the the number two at one time, the I think the co-director of the school, but everyone in that orbit of of

Brownsville Revival School of Ministry or Fire School of Ministry uh knows the name uh Bob Gladstone, one of the most

beloved voices, respected voices. So, so it was me, Bob Gladstone, Keith Collins,

who was who ended up being the the pastor of Fire Church. He was also the

president for a time of the Brownsville Revival School of Ministry. And then Mike Labanovic, a a local elder with Bob

Gladstone. All of us at one time or another extremely close to Mike Brown.

So, and and all of us, you know, everyone that really was with Mike going back 20 years ago, there’s only one

leader that I know of. I don’t want to I got to be careful. And that’s, you know, Josh Peters. I don’t know of any other

leaders that are still with him. and the majority are deeply concerned about what’s happening right now and and and

the lies that are being told. So the the four of us, we formed an ad hoc board

because we wanted to make sure that Sarah and the other witnesses had

representation before Mike Brown’s board. As they were moving ahead, hiring lawyers, hiring investigators, we said,

“Well, hang on. You know, we’re not so sure that we’re going to cooperate. you know, we we need to make sure that this

is uh and by the way, Mike says it in the in the video with other shot that I think it was a a victim friendly I can’t

remember the exact words he used, but no, we wanted to make sure that it wasn’t a law firm that was focused on

getting the the accused off, which which is often the case. Um, but in those

negotiations, we we said you you know, you’ve got to have a board of elders uh that is going

to look at this information. So, you got the investigation, but then you need New Testament eldership. This is what I’ve

been arguing back about for quite a while. You need genuine and it would be best if Mike was in a local congregation

and it was his elders, but they put a group together of elders. And I said, “And you need a traumainformed counselor

because there the fact is six guys or five guys or four guys in a room

looking over what happened to a 20-year-old woman and a and a and a and a mother. uh Kim, a older mom. I said,

“You need females in that room and you need trauma-informed counselors in that room. Uh not just a bunch of uh you

know, you know, 50, 60 year old elders. So, it was always understood that the

trauma-informed counselor was to work with the accountability board to decide

on discipline. I never it I never never imagined that that trauma-informed

counselor was there because of Mike’s trauma until I heard it from his own. And let me let me add one more element

on the phone. I asked him about the trauma-informed counselor. Uh or was it text? I think I texted him. Hey, what’s

up with the trauma form coun trauma-informed counselor? It appears as though they weren’t involved. That’s how it looks to me as I look at the report

afterwards. There’s signs in there that they weren’t involved. And he says to me, I wasn’t part of that because I

recused myself. So I’ll have to direct you to rally. He’s going to be able to help you. And so now in this interview,

he goes, the trauma informed counselor was for me. Wait a minute. Now you know. Now you know what they’re for.

Apparently they were for you the whole time. This is this is completely a lie.

This is entirely a lie. All right. This is Mike during editing again. Look, I I watched back this part with me and Ron

talking here and I realized how clear of an example it is what he said to me in

our phone call compared to what he said in the Mercy Culture podcast. And um again, this phone call was only recorded

because he wanted it recorded and so I did as well because he was going to record it. Figured I should have my own

copy. Uh but let me read to you now from this conversation where I asked him about this. And please keep in mind he’s

told Mercy Culture it was always going to be a counselor for him. It was never going to be a counselor to be a

trauma-informed counselor, you know, involved in the process of with oversight type of thing. So I said to

Mike, could I ask one thing that has come up that I haven’t heard a response to? He said, yeah. I said, ‘It’s the

idea that elders, the elders were going to include a trauma-informed counselor, and then the claim is that that wasn’t

the case, Mike. He challenged me at that point. He says,”How do you know it wasn’t the case?” So, I said, “Was it?”

He said, “They had other consultants. They had several people that they consulted, but I was recused, so you’d

have to ask the elders.” They did tell me that they had other people they consulted with outside of the team that

wrote the statement worked on that was one thing, but they had other people whose names did not want to be mentioned

that they consulted with. You’d have to ask them. I can refer you to Raleigh Washington on that. I was recused, but I

was told that they had other people they consulted with, but I don’t know. I can’t give you names. That’s not my

involvement, but I can refer you to the person you can send questions to. So I

said it would be at minimum wise for them to address this because it was a public commitment they made publicly. We

committed we will do this. And as far as what they publicly published, it doesn’t look like that happened. Mike Brown

says, “Got it. Well, yeah. I’ll get you an email of the person you can reach out to that can speak to that that’s outside

of my domain.” Now Mike is saying it was never to be that that person was involved in the investigation or the

oversight. It was just going to be that that person was for him personally. Well, then why

is it in May on Cinco de Mayo? Why is it that that wasn’t the story when he talked to me on the phone? And I asked I

asked the Elder Accountability Board. I mean, as soon as it came out, I I was texting, emailing, and saying because

there were a number of problems. And and one of them did meet with me and Sarah. Him and his wife met with me and Sarah

for an hour. And I have to say, uh, while we disagreed, uh, I appreciated their transparency in talking me through

their process. Uh, but I asked about the trauma-informed counselor and they never once they never once said, “Oh, yeah,