Below are two transcripts of the controversial private Hilsong meeting that took place on March 18, 2022. ChurchWatch Central is calling the first one the ‘Organic Transcript’ and the second one a ‘Clean Transcript’
The first transcript is hard to read but keeps in all the ‘ums’ and ‘ahs’ made by the speaker. The second transcript is clean but edited for easy reading. The organic one serves the purpose of allowing readers to observe when the speakers were revealing they were either uncertain or uncomfortable when recalling events or pursuing certain topics or trajectories.
UM…. UH……
A good example of his hesitancy with his ‘umming’ is where Dooley tap dances around the scriptures he alludes to in 1 Timothy.
Dooley was clearly uncomfortable with how to deal with those clear scriptural instructions and appears hesitant to read them out. He instead went against the clear teachings in how to discipline a senior figure who persisted in sin:
“Do not entertain an accusation against an elder, except on the testimony of two or three witnesses. But those who persist in sin should be rebuked in front of everyone, so that the others will stand in fear of sin. I solemnly charge you before God and Christ Jesus and the elect angels to maintain these principles without bias, and to do nothing out of partiality.” 1 Timothy 5:19-21
By silencing the voice of God in this meeting, Dooley is rejecting God’s Word and biblical discipline:
“We’re not about exposing people. We’re not about covering sin.”
The Hillsong elders who were not in sin and were possibly following these scriptures were rebuked by George Aghajanian. Dooley’s ‘ums and ahs’ suggests that he knew what the scriptures say – but doesn’t allow Hillsong staff hear God speak through His Word.
ORGANIC TRANSCRIPT
TRANSCRIPT OF PRIVATE HILLSONG STAFF MEETING
Date of meeting: March 18, 2022.
Phil Dooley: “Good to see you all. Um, I’m going to share with you all, um, some news. I think, um, all of us are aware that, um, there is some information circulating about Ps Brian, and um, I feel uh it’s appropriate to share with you all what I know and what the board knows to be, um, the truth.
Um, I want to start by saying, um, actually I want to read from Psalm 50, um, which I-I shared with our global board – and um, this is what it says
Psalms 50:7 Listen, my people, and I will speak; I will testify against you, Israel: I am God, your God. I bring no charges against you concerning your sacrifices or concerning your burnt offerings, which are ever before me. I have no need of a bull from your stall or of goats from your pens. For every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. I know every bird in the mountains, and the insects in the fields are mine. If I were hungry I would not tell you, for the world is mine, and all that is in it.
I do not eat the flesh of bulls or drink the blood of goats. Sacrifice thank offerings to God, fulfill your vows to the Most High, and call on me in the day of trouble; I will deliver you, and you will honor me.
And there’s just a couple of things I want to share from that before we get started because I really believe it’s important for us to have a biblical foundation and just consider everything from that perspective. And to understand, um, you know, we want God at the centre of this and Godly wisdom. That uh, passage of story that I read out, basically starts by reminding us that God is ultimately in control. Uh, God is the ultimate authority. Uh, and God is works across the world and His sovereignty- He doesn’t need us, but we need Him.
And I think it’s important to understand that we are not a business. We are not a social organization. We are centred around our Heavenly Father and Jesus. And that is the lens through which we should operate uh, and the lens through which we should approach all the different challenges and the life that we have to navigate and deal with.
So um, it’s important that we understand that. It’s important that we understand, firstly, this is- this is God’s. The second thing here is the thought that we should be thankful. And I think that’s a great place for us to be, uh, reminded, is, we’re thankful. I think everyone on this zoom, to list a whole lot of reasons of what they’re thankful to God for and what they’re thankful to their church for. What they’re thankful to Brian and Bobby for.
And so I think we should always maintain that attitude in our spirit that no matter what any of us are going through, uh, I’ll be going through a lot these last few days. But there’s a lot to be thankful for. And we want to keep that attitude.
And the third thing I want to say is, it says in verse 18, ‘call on me in the day of trouble, and I will deliver you’. Verse 15, ‘and you will honour me’. And right now we are facing some trouble. And I think it’s important that in the midst of our own emotions, and our own mindset, and our own speaking that we say, ‘God we call on you to deliver us’.
And when I say ‘deliver us’, I don’t mean to take us out of the situation but to guide us through and to give us wisdom through that’.
‘And you will honor me. Deliver us.’ Uh, and He says, ‘When you call on me, I will deliver you, and I will honor you.’ Uh- Sorry, ‘And you will honor me.’ And so there is a time when we say, ‘God, we ask you to deliver us, to give us wisdom, to guide us in this situation. But we honor You.’ And we honor, we honor God. We honor our Lord Jesus, above every being, above any man, any woman.
Um, Jesus is essential to our faith and essential to our church. Um, and we honor Him. Yes, we honor people uh, but ultimately our honor is towards God, and ultimately Jesus. And so we need to just remind ourselves of these truths.
So let’s pray.
Father God, I just thank you – thank you again, for all you have done in our lives, and to this point, and all you’ve done in our church, across the globe, uh, in Australia, uh, and all the amazing people who have sacrificed and given and sewed into this vision. Lord, we thank you, for Brian and Bobby, and all that they have done, um, to build our church. And, uh, we just pray right now that in this situation that we are facing and dealing with that you would give us wisdom, guide us. Uh, that we would do, uh, your will. And Lord that you, through all of this, would be glorified, in Jesus name. Amen.
So, uh, I have the responsibility of sharing with you, with you, uh, some news that I wish I didn’t have to share with you. But nonetheless, it’s important that we, uh, talk about these things. And I want to start by saying again that, um, I love our church. And I love Ps Brian, Bobby – and I love you guys. I don’t know all of you, but every one of you that I know, I think you’re amazing. Um, we such have an incredible church of amazing faithful leaders.
Um, at the start of this year, there was a announcement made by Pastor Brian that he would be stepping aside for 12 months, um, for the reason of his own personal health and emotional well being and because of the court case that he uh, is going to be dealing with, uh, at the end of the year. And, uh, Lucinda and I were asked to step into this interim role. And the reason why he took that step is absolutely the truth. That is why he took that step.
Prior to that, there are two incidents, um, involving PS Brian, that as a board, um, we have had to deal with. And those incidences, um, firstly involves something that happens approximately 10 years, two- two complaints against Ps Brian. Um, and these allegations were treated very seriously. Um, and I believe real significant steps were taken to investigate and resolve them.
Ah, the first incident involves, um, Pastor Brian text messaging with a female member of staff, which ended in an inappropriate text message. Um, along the lines of, ‘If I was with you, I’d like to give you a kiss and a cuddle or a hug’, words of that nature. That particular staff member was obviously, um, upset by that and felt awkward, and went to, I think, responded to that. Went to George Aghajanian and um, decided that she would like to leave staff because of that. Uh, and-and so, so, you know she knew Brian was very apologetic, uh, for that. And a- I think Pastor Brian- it was dealt with George Aghajanian and Nabi Saleh.
I, personally was not aware of that, as was the majority of the Global Board until the end of last year, 2021. Um, that was the first incident. Um. Along with that um, this particular staff member came back because she couldn’t get work, came back a few months later and said, I’m really struggling to get a job. I feel it’s unfair that I had to leave my job the way I did, and I would like some compensation for that. And so it was decided that she would be paid a couple of months salary, um, for what had happened to her.
Um, and so that is, that is what happened in that scenario.
Um, then Pastor Brian said, I want to pay that personally because I don’t think it is fair on the church to pay that salary, due to – you know – because it was my indiscretion. So he personally paid that back. Um, so that’s the first incident.
Um, so the second incident happened in 2019. Uh, and what happened there was uh, there was a [inaudible] that Ps Brian was, uh, at Hillsong Conference in 2019. Uh, late, in the foyer after one of the conference nights, um, drinking with a group. And um, and you now it’s quite, quite a group there in the foyer of the Pullman. And there was a woman there, that from what I’m told, she didn’t have any specific interaction with, um, and Ps Brian has also been on anxiety tablets.
What I neglected to mention is that in the first instance, with a text messaging, at that time, Pastor Brian had also been struggling with um, uh, taking sleeping tablets. And- and he’d been taking those, um – my battery could die. I’m sorry, I’ve had a lot of phone calls [inaudible]
Um, and so, it would appear that the sleeping tablets did contribute to his behaviour. Um, but he is taking full responsibility for that. Um-“
George Aghajanian: “Phil.”
Phil Dooley: “I’m sorry?”
George Aghajanian: “Phil, can I just add one thing with [inaudible]…”
Phil Dooley: “I’m sorry to interrupt you.”
George Aghajanian: “He had a dependency on sleeping tablets back then, and through- through professional help, we got him off those tablets. Totally off those tablets. So I just want to make sure everybody can see where we’re at.”
Phil Dooley: “Yep. And feel free George at any time to um, bring in, um, further comment, um, because I’m trying to go off what I know, uh, to be correct. Um, okay. So, uh, the second incident in 2019, was like I say, um, was in a hotel, where there was a group drinking.
Uh, and there was a woman part of that group who was not part of our church, not on staff or anything. And um, later that evening, um, Brian had also been taking anxiety tablets. And later that evening he, um, went to attempt to go to his room, didn’t have his room key and ended up knocking on the door of this woman’s room. And she opened the door and he went into her room.
Um, the reality- the truth is, we don’t know exactly what happens next. Um, this woman has not said there was any sexual, um, activity. Brian has said there was no sexual activity. But he was in the room for 40 minutes. He doesn’t have much of a recollection because of he says the mixture of the anxiety tablets, and the alcohol. This woman had also been drinking, and so her recollection is not completely coherent.
Who, based on that, uh, that happened. This uh, particular woman then went through, obviously, a whole lot of conflicting emotions. She then went and spoke to someone on staff who then spoke to someone, I think who then ultimately went to Brian. And Brian referred it to George, and it was brought to the attention of the Global Board.
Um, the Global Board obviously takes these things very seriously, and looks at it from the perspective of what is our response to a matter of this nature. At this time, when this happened in 2019, myself, and I think majority of the global board were not aware of the earlier issue.
And so that was very taken seriously. There was a integrity unit of four people, um, sent to, uh, deal with this appropriately with Brian. And that was George Aghajanian, Nabi Saleh, Phil Denton and Gary Clark- uh and, again, this was something that was taken really seriously and going, ‘Okay, what is the best way to deal with a situation of this nature? What does our government say about this?’
Uh, we had previously been in the ACC. Uh, and it was, you know, what is the ACC governance in an- in an issue of this nature of this category? Uh, how- how should this be dealt with. Uh, and it was, um, it was guided based on-“
[Gary Clark prompts Phil]
“- Yeah. Sorry. Also, there were 2 outside sources – Gary Clark’s with me – it’s um, pastors who were included in that. Um, Paul DeJong was brought in to be part of the process, and Chris Hodges.
And ultimately, through all of that, as you can imagine, not easy. Uh, the goal is always restoration. The goal is always health.
Yes, discipline is required, but from the um, perspective and position of, ‘How does someone get healthy and healed from [inaudible] nature like this?’ And it was decided that Brian should take three months off, and he would, in his own words, abstain from alcohol, in that time. Three months from ministry work.
Um, unfortunately, he didn’t abide by that. He did conduct some ministry. I believe on three separate occasions. And uh, he also did, as he would say, consumed some alcohol.
And uh, it was brought again to the board’s attention at the end of last year, uh, when an email was sent to a whole group of elders, uh, elders, uh, a group that’s based primarily out of the Hills and the city campus in Sydney. Um, they’re not part of the global governance, but they have been involved in processes of wisdom, prayer, council- all of those things.
Uh, they became aware of it. The Australian board was presented with this information and so, again, further discussion was had. And um, it was decided from all of that, um, that Brian needed to take further time off, which he did in December. And he has not conducted ministry from beginning, um, of December, onwards.
At the same time, um, it was discussed with him about his general level of health and the effect of alcohol. And his response was, ‘I understand’ (you know) ‘I need to deal with this’ and didn’t get it right the first time. And the board said, ‘Well you need to take that extra extended time off’, which he did.
And then, again, ongoing, it was decided, ‘Look beyond that, you need to get healthy. And so you need to take the extra time. Because you’ve got the court case, and because there are underlying issues here.’ Um, and that’s when I was asked, and Lucinda, to step into this- this role that we’re currently in.
Uh, there was a lot of conversation, discussion back and forth about how to deal with this, and also what’s going to be made.
Um, and I think what’s happening now is there’s people who are going, ‘Well, there was a statement that Brian made that he’s taking time off. And had, and it’s not reflective, or mentioning these other issues, and therefore it appeared to be a cover-up.’
Um, I would say that, I believe that the board acted appropriately, under the circumstances of the information now given to them. And with a desire to see Brian healthy, and then look at, ‘Well what does the future look like for Pastor Brian?’ Um, and so it was decided that a statement would be made that focused on where he was at, with regard to his own health and emotional needs to get better and the court case.
And there’s a few reasons for that. If you looked at, in Timothy, when do you publicly expose someone’s sin, uh, it talks about that the- in the- you know- that’s happening when someone’s behavior is such that they are not – um, they’re not at a position where they are under any form of accountability. Where they are, you know, basically working against the church. There’s just no space for them to be in any kind of fellowship and working really in opposition to it, then you would publicly get up and say, ‘This person is no longer’ or ‘This person has- we need to share with you what’s going on with this person’, they know in these situations, in light of what has happened, um, with the evidence that was before the Global Board, the decision was made to offer, (I suppose what I would call grace), and not to cover up but not expose.
And you know, I think there are people who have different opinions about that and I understand that. Um, and the idea or desire was that Brian would use that time to get healthy. Like I say, to then consider what his future would look like.
Um, and we, I think, as a church, we’ve always been a church that sees the grace of God expressed in Jesus, and that our desire is not to expose anyone, um, but give people room to be restored. Um, and to give people room to repent and to move forward and to have the right people know, and the right people offer accountability and uh, a process to move forward to help and- community!
And uh- so that- that is the situation with those two incidences. What has now happened is, although all the elders, um, the Australian board, and the global board agreed to this statement, um, it appears that some elders, once the statement came out, decided they don’t like the way it’s been stated.
And so they have started to talk to other people. Um, which I suppose on one hand, I understand, on another hand, it’s disappointing because that’s confidential information. And I feel like if they weren’t happy with the first statement then it would have been better to have said it then and kind of worked it through then. Um, but I suppose they would have reasons why they feel uncomfortable or unable to do that.
Um, so that’s where we are now. Obviously you’re going to hear from, um, me where we’re at. And I want to also say this, a couple of things I want to say one is.
There are victims in this and we, we as a church, are always looking out for those who feel like they have been a victim, and want to support them, and love them and for them to feel safe. It’s important that anyone who comes to our church, on staff, or in the congregation, feels that our church is a safe church. A church where they can come and not feel like that they are going to be subject to any form of abuse or harassment.
And because of that we all understand that and we- we recognise that. And that doesn’t matter what level someone is operating. As I say, from the senior pastor right the way through, there are victims here and we are deeply sorry for those victims and for what they had to go through and what they’ve had to endure.
Um, I think we also need to acknowledge that as a church, as a board, and as a governance, we need to look at how we are we doing things in the most healthy way. Uh, trustworthy. I believe we have a bunch of very trustworthy people. But as our church has grown around the world, um, maybe we need to look at some other things that can help us to be more um, careful in issues of governance and accountability, and respond and who takes responsibility. And there, consider where is there a power imbalance, and what we need to do to address that.
So I’ll leave all those things from the stage, um, on the table, as we move forward. Um, I would say, my prayer is that we will continue to be a church that is a grace environment. Uh, we are not about exposing people. We are not about um, we are not about covering sin. I- I- and I- you look at the example of Jesus – and I- I look at what does the Bible say about this situation. So that’s what I want us to keep coming back to.
And we acknowledge, you know, Pastor Brian has made significant mistakes here. And no one, myself, I don’t believe anyone, as senior level wants to cover any of that up, but simply desires, for him, like any one of us, to come to a place of healing, um, which involves honesty, and involves transparency and involves repentance. All of those things, and acknowledgement, where there has been mistakes made and- and a desire to make it right. And that has been Pastor Brian’s heart.
Um, I think the only other thing, George, that I haven’t, it’s just tugged my mind, is that this woman in the 2019 scenario asked for- after this whole incident- asked for her conference fee returned and her, um, Kingdom Builders gift-
George Aghajanian: She was going to a Hillsong relationship-based church.
Phil Dooley: Yeah. She asked for that back. And, again I understa- Ps Brian, with remorse, said I don’t want the church to have to pay that. I will personally pay that because of his desire to acknowledge where he made a mistake.
Um yeah. We also have confidentiality, ah, in these scenarios. And we need to also be aware of that when we’re dealing with anyone who’s on staff.
Um, and I would hope that (Oh I don’t know) if people are recording this. I would hope not. But I’m aware that that could happen. Um, and I would just ask that iyou guys, um, I’m going to hand over to George and I have some further comments, but I just ask that we would all pray for anyone who has been a victim of any form of harassment or abuse, because it’s- it’s not right. It’s not fair. It’s not who we are as a church. And we want those people to feel like they are welcome and loved and cared for in our church. But we also do want to pray for Pastor Brian, and for Bobbie, and for the family. Because obviously, there is a lot of pain associated with s-s uh, sin. Sin is messy, and, and it brings all kinds of pain.
My prayer is, as the church through this, um, we can look at ourselves honestly and ask ourselves, where have we fallen short? And where do we need to, to repent, um, and ask for forgiveness and ask God to guide us forward, um, in a way that is healing, for those who may be hurting -uh, in this group, and within our church. And my prayer is filled with hope that through all of this, we can create a healthier environment, to build our church going forwards.
And pray that through all of this, Ps Brian will be in a healthy position for his own life, his own future, and- and Bobbie also.
But I’m going to hand over to George now.
George Aghajanian: Thanks Phil. Just want to say a couple of comments here. The- ther- there’s are a lot of rumours around at the moment. And there are people accepting those rumours as facts. And I would encourage you to be very, very careful. And those rumours have originally started by a handful of people, a few of the elders – not all of the elders are on the same page on these serious [issues]. And they talked extensively to people on our staff and in our church unfortunately. But they were never involved in the initial situations. They were never involved in the investigations we conducted.
The Global Board is tasked with the responsibility of overseeing all of our pastors, to create healing. They are just splitting the restoration process. Not the elders. The elders role is to basically pray for people and to care for people spiritually. But beyond that, they have no governance or authority in our church.
And yet, a very few of them are speaking as if they have a lot of authority. And the reality is, that – that it is the Global Board’s responsibility to make sure that when situations arise, whether it is any of our pastors – or Pastor Brian’s, uh – we – we abide by our code of conduct and our disciplinary restoration process, which are documents that were instilled when we took over that function from the ACC several years ago now.
So, I am asking all of you to be very careful what you are listening too, what information is shared with you, because I personally have heard a lot of misinformation about what Pastor Brian has done and it’s false.
And I’ve heard of all sorts of information about – uh – you know – uh you know, ‘He’s paid hush money’, ‘He tried covering things up’. It’s not true. And, if uh – you know – if you have questions like that, PLEASE, don’t go off and gossip! Don’t take a little bit of information somebody has given to you and run off to the next person!
As a church right now, we have to – as a staff right now, we have to pull together in unity and allow the Global Board to work through these situations. And having voices from all round contributing in to this equation is not helpful – AND is going to hurt our church significantly. And it’s going to hurt Brian, Bobbie and the family.
Our desire is to work through this. We – we see the counsel, as Phil said it, external people, was it? There are lawyers, for, in the case of certain situations, um, uh, with external ministry advisors. So we take our role as board members seriously.
We’ve just finished our board meeting this morning. Uh – and there was robust conversation in that meeting but there was also a spirit of unity. And so, we can go off and all – uh – decide to accept second and third hand information and continue to spread that, or we can act in a Godly way. And we can decide to allow processes to continue, for healing to continue, the restorations to continue and to focus on rebuilding our church.
Uh, that’s predominantly what I wanted to share.”
Phil Dooley: “Okay thanks George. I just want to add a couple of things as well. The first thing is that um, you know, this is obviously to many people the first time you may be hearing anything like this. And um, you may- I think it’s important for us to process this and talk to the right people. And, you know, we have a Pastoral care team um, who is available, um, for you. And um, if you want to speak to them, um, I’d encourage you to do that.
Um, regarding, you know, our own individual health and our own processing of something like this, cos it’s just got so much emotion and, you know, persona- perso- it’s very personal for all of us. So, I just want to say that there is pastoral care available and people you can talk to. Um, and I’d encourage you, uh, to do that. I know there’s a lot of our [inaudible] staff and locations around. And you would know who you can trust to talk to within your pastoral care structures. Um, and I think that it’s important that you do that.
The second thing, uh, I would say is, this is going to be an ongoing um, process. So, I am talking to you now. Um, we will work out a statement around this, explaining uh, what has happened to remove the rumor. To remove the hearsay. To remove all of that. Um, and to just focus on the facts. Um, and that is something that will go out to our church.
Um, this is obviously the beginning of a conversation. And what I believe is going to help all of us, the goal is to, somehow through pain, understand what is God teaching us? What are we learning? How do we move forward?
And also to pray for all those who have experienced, like I say, any form of pain or harassment in any form, and continue to pray for Pastor Brian as well, and our whole church.
EDITED TRANSCIPT.
Crikey”s David Hardaker writes:
‘How do we move forward?’: edited transcript of Hillsong’s March 18 all-staff meeting
An excerpt from the meeting discloses Brian Houston’s misdeeds, a call for compassion, and a damage control strategy.
Last week Crikey reported exclusively on allegations levelled at Hillsong’s figurehead and stood-aside global pastor, Brian Houston. Hillsong later issued its statement on what was said at the all-staff meeting but it omitted important details. To give you the full picture, Crikey is publishing a transcript of the audio recording which was leaked to us. It has been edited to remove extraneous material.
Pastor Phil Dooley, Hillsong’s interim global pastor:
At the start of this year, there was an announcement made by Pastor Brian that he would be stepping aside for 12 months, for the reason of his own personal health and emotional well-being and because of the court case that he is going to be dealing with at the end of the year. And Lucinda and I were asked to step into this interim role. And the reason why he took that step is absolutely the truth. That is why he took that step.
Prior to that, there are two incidents involving Pastor Brian that, as a board, we have had to deal with. And those incidents, firstly, involved something that happened approximately 10 years ago. [There are] two complaints against Pastor Brian and these allegations were treated very seriously. And I believe real significant steps were taken to investigate and resolve them.
The first incident involved Pastor Brian text-messaging with a female member of staff, which ended in an inappropriate text message along the lines of “If I was with you, I’d like to give you a kiss and a cuddle, or a hug”, words of that nature. That particular staff member was obviously upset by that and felt awkward and I think responded to that. [She] went to George Aghajanian and decided that she would like to leave staff because of that. And so she did. Brian was very apologetic for that. And I think, Pastor Brian, it was dealt with by George Aghajanian and Nabi Saleh.
I personally was not aware of that, as was the majority of the global board, until the end of last year, 2021. That was the first incident.
Along with that, this particular staff member came back because she couldn’t get work. Came back a few months later and said: “I’m really struggling to get a job. I feel it’s unfair that I had to leave my job the way I did, and I would like some compensation for that.”
And so it was decided that she would be paid a couple of months’ salary for what had happened to her. And so that is what happened in that scenario. Then Pastor Brian said: “I want to pay that personally, because I don’t think it’s fair on the church to pay that salary because it was my indiscretion.” So he personally paid that back.
So that’s the first incident.
[The second incident took place during the 2019 Hillsong conference.]
[It was] in the foyer, after one of the conference nights, drinking with a group, and [there was] quite a group there in the foyer of the Pullman [hotel].
And there was a woman there that from what I’m told he didn’t have any specific interaction with. And Pastor Brian had also been on anxiety tablets. What I neglected to mention is that, in the first instance with the text messaging, at that time Pastor Brian had also been struggling with taking sleeping tablets, and he’d been taking those.
And so it would appear that the sleeping tablets did contribute to his behavior, but he has taken full responsibility for that.
George Aghajanian, general manager Hillsong (interjects):
Sorry. Phil, can I just add one thing with regard to that? I’m sorry to interrupt you. He had a dependency on sleeping tablets back there, and through professional health we got him off those tablets. Totally off those tablets. So I just want to make sure everybody’s aware of that.
Pastor Phil Dooley:
OK. So, the second incident in 2019 was, like I say, the Pullman hotel, where there was a group drinking, and there was a woman [who was] part of that group who was part of our church. Not on staff or anything. And later that evening Brian had also been taking anxiety tablets. And later that evening, he went to attempt to go to his room. Didn’t have his room key, and ended up knocking on the door of this woman’s room. And she opened the door, and he went into her room.
The truth is, we don’t know exactly what happened next. This woman has not said that there was any sexual activity. Brian has said there was no sexual activity. But he was in the room for 40 minutes. He doesn’t have much of a recollection because of, he says, the mixture of the anxiety tablets and the alcohol. This woman had also been drinking. And so her recollection is not completely coherent. So, based on that, that happened. This particular woman then felt, obviously, a whole lot of conflicting emotions. She then went and spoke to someone on staff, who then spoke to someone. I think, ultimately went to Brian and Brian referred it to George. And it was brought to the attention of the global board.
The global board obviously takes these things very seriously and looks at it from the perspective of, what is our response to a matter of this nature. At this time when this happened in 2019, myself and I think majority of the global board were not aware of the earlier issue. And so, that was taken very seriously.
There was an integrity unit of four people sent to deal with this appropriately with Brian. And that was George Aghajanian, Melody Sarly, Phil Denton and Gary Clarke.
And again, this was something that was taken really seriously, and [taken from the point of view of] OK, what is the best way to deal with a situation of this nature? What does our governance say about this? We had previously been in the ACC [Australian Christian Churches], and it was: what is the ACC governance in an issue of this nature, of this category? How should this be dealt with? And it was decided based on …
And, sorry, also there were two outside sources, pastors, who were included in that [investigation unit]: Paul de Jong was brought in to be part of the process, and Chris Hodges.
And ultimately, through all of that, as you can imagine, not easy. The goal is always restoration. The goal is always health. Yes, discipline is required. But from the perspective and position of how does someone get healthy and healed from things of a sinful nature like this?
And it was decided that Brian should take three months off, and he would, in his own words, abstain from alcohol in that time. Three months from ministry work. Unfortunately he didn’t abide by that. He did conduct some ministry, I believe, on three separate occasions. And he also did, as he would say, consume some alcohol. And it was brought again to the board’s attention at the end of last year, when an email was sent to a whole group of elders. Elders are a group that are based primarily out of the Hills and the city campus in Sydney. They’re not part of the global governance. But they have been involved in processes of wisdom, prayer, counsel, all of those things.
They became aware of it. The Australian board was presented with this information. And so again, further discussion was had. And It was decided from all of that, that Brian needed to take further time off, which he did in December. And he has not conducted ministry from the beginning of December onwards.
And at the same time, it was discussed with him about his general level of health and the effect of alcohol. And his response was: “I understand. I need to deal with this, and didn’t get it right the first time.” And the board said: “Well, you need to take that extra extended time off,” which he did. And then in ongoing, it was decided, beyond that: “You need to get healthy. And so you need to take this extra time, because you’ve got the court case and because there are underlying issues here.” And that’s when I was asked — and Lucinda — to step into this role that we’re currently in.
There was a lot of conversation, discussion, back and forth, about how to deal with this, and also what statements to be made. And I think what’s happening now is, there’s people who are going: “Well, there was a statement that Brian made, that he’s taking time off, and it’s not reflective or mentioning these other issues. And therefore it could appear to be a cover-up.” I would say that I believe the board acted appropriately under the circumstances of the information that were given to them, and with a desire to see Brian healthy. And then look at, well, what does the future look like for Pastor Brian?
And so it was decided that a statement would be made that focused on where he was at with regard to his own health and emotional needs to get better, and the court case.
But in these situations, in light of what has happened, with the evidence that was before the global board, the decision was made to offer, I suppose, what I would call grace, and not to cover up but to not expose. And I think there are people who had different opinions about that, and I understand that. And the idea or desire was, if Brian would use that time to get healthy. And then, like I say, it would be considered what his future would look like. And we, I think as a church, we have always been a church that sees the grace of God expressed in Jesus. And that our desire is not to expose anyone but to give people room to be restored, and to give people room to repent, and to move forward, and to have the right people know, and the right people offer accountability and a process to move forward to health and community.
And so that is the situation with those two incidents. What has now happened is — although all the elders, the Australian board, and the global board agreed to this statement — it appears that some elders, once the statement came out, decided they don’t like the way it’s been stated. And so they have started to talk to other people. Which I suppose on one hand I understand. On another hand it’s disappointing, because that was confidential information. And I feel like if they weren’t happy with the first statement, then it would’ve been better to have said it then and worked it through then. But I suppose they would have reasons why they felt uncomfortable, or unable to do that.
So that’s where we are now. I wanted you guys to hear from me where we’re at. And I want to also say this couple of things I want to say. One is, there are victims in this. And we, as a church, are always looking out for those who feel like they have been a victim, and want to support them and love them and for them to feel safe. It’s important that anyone who comes to our church — on staff or in the congregation — feels that our church is a safe church, a church where they can come and not feel like they are going to be subject to any form of abuse or harassment. And it’s important that we all understand that, and we recognise that. And that doesn’t matter at what level someone is operating. As I say, from a senior pastor, right a way through, there are victims here, and we’re deeply sorry for those victims, and for what they’ve had to go through and what they’ve had to endure.
I think we also need to acknowledge that as a church, as a board, as a governance, we need to look at, are we doing things in the most healthy way — trustworthy? I believe we have a bunch of very trustworthy people, but as our church has grown around the world, maybe we need to look at some other things that can help us to be more careful in issues of governance and accountability and who takes responsibility. And consider where is there a power imbalance, and what we need to do to address that. So I think all of those things, I would say, are up on the table as we move forward. I would say my prayer is that we would continue to be a church that is a grace environment. We’re not about exposing people. We’re not about covering sin.
And I look at the example of Jesus, and I look at, what does the Bible say about these situations? And so that’s what I want us to keep coming back to. And we acknowledge Pastor Brian has made significant mistakes here. And no one — myself, I don’t believe anyone at a senior level — wants to cover any of that up but simply desires for him, like any one of us, to come to a place of healing. Which involves honesty, it involves transparency, it involves repentance, all of those things, and acknowledgment where there has been mistakes made. And a desire to make it right. And that has been Pastor Brian’s heart.
The only other thing is that this woman in the 2019 scenario, after this whole incident, asked for her conference fee returned and her Kingdom Builders [donation to the church].
The Hillsong flock, lost and forlorn, looks to the Good Shepherd — as the young revolt
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And again, Pastor Brian with remorse said: “I don’t want the church to have to pay that. I will personally pay,” because of his desire to acknowledge where he’d made a mistake.
I just ask that we would all pray for anyone who has been a victim of any form of harassment or abuse, because it’s not right. It’s not fair. It’s not who we are as a church. And we want those people to feel like they are welcome, and loved, and cared for in our church.
But we also do want to pray for Pastor Brian, and for [his wife] Bobbie, and for their family. Because obviously there is a lot of pain associated with this. Sin is messy, and it brings all kinds of pain. My prayer is, as a church through this, we can look at ourselves honestly and ask ourselves where have we fallen short, and where do we need to repent, and ask for forgiveness, and ask God to guide us forward, in a way that is healing for those who may be hurting in this group and within our church. And my prayer is filled with hope that through all of this we can create a healthier environment, to build our church going forward. And pray that through all of this Pastor Brian will be in a healthy position, for his own life and his own future, and Bobbie also.
George Aghajanian, general manager Hillsong:
Thanks, Phil. I just wanted to just say a couple of comments here. There’s a lot of rumours around at the moment, and people are just accepting those rumours as fact. And I would encourage you to be very, very careful. And those rumours have originally started with a handful of people. A few of the elders. Not all the elders are on the same page as these few individuals. And they have talked extensively to people on our staff, and in our church, unfortunately. But they were never involved in the initial situation. They were never involved in the investigations that we conducted.
The global board is tasked with the responsibility of overseeing all of our pastors, the credentialing, the disciplining, the restoration process. Not the elders. The elders’ role is to basically pray for people, and to care for people spiritually. But beyond that they have no government’s authority in our church. And yet a very few of them are speaking as if they have a lot of authority. And the reality is that it’s the global board’s responsibility to make sure that when situations arise — whether it’s with any of our pastors or Pastor Brian — we abide by our code of conduct and our disciplinary restoration process. Which are documents that were instilled when we took over that function from the ACC several years ago now.
So I’m asking all of you to be very careful what you’re listening to, what information is shared with you. Because I personally have heard a lot of misinformation about what Pastor Brian has done, and it’s false. And I’ve heard of all sorts of information about “he’s paid hush money, and he tried to cover things up”. It’s not true.
And having voices from all around contributing into this equation is unhelpful.
Pastor Phil Dooley:
This is obviously the beginning of a conversation, and what I believe is going to help all of us. The goal is to, somehow through pain, [understand]: what is God teaching us? What are we learning? How do we move forward? And also to pray for all those who have experienced, like I say, any form of pain or harassment in any form, and continue to pray for Pastor Brian as well, and our whole church.
Source: David Hardaker, ‘How do we move forward?’: edited transcript of Hillsong’s March 18 all-staff meeting, Crikey, https://www.crikey.com.au/2022/03/23/hillsong-staff-meeting-transcript/, Published March 23, 2022. (Access March 23, 2022.)
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“Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?” Galatians 4:16
Categories: Hillsong