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Prophets, Scams, and Bethel: Son of a fraud exposing the NAR’s prophetic movement (Part 2).

By churchwatcher on July 11, 2025

In a bombshell interview on Healed-ish, Jedidiah Hartley shared his personal journey of confronting abuse and corruption within the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR). Hosted by Jubilee Dawn, this second interview of Hartley’s testimony exposes what really happens behind the closed doors of charismatic church circles, Bethel and the families of prophetic grifters.

Read part 1 here:

Prophets, Scams, and Bethel: Son of a fraud exposing the NAR’s prophetic movement (Part 1)

People mentioned in this interview:

Bob Hartley – Jedidiah Hartley’s father, (a ‘prophetic’ minister)
Bill Johnson (Bethel Church)
Kris Vallotton (Bethel Church)
Jason Vallotton (Bethel Church)
Mike Bickle (International House of Prayer)
Shawn Bolz (Bethel Church)
Heidi Baker (Missionary and leader of Iris Global)
Lance Wallnau (Dominionist speaker and author)
Jim Bakker (Televangelist)
Deborah (Woman who spoke out against Mike Bickle)
Sean Feucht (Christian worship leader)
Rick Joyner (Founder of MorningStar Ministries)
John Collins (William Branham Research Institute)
Isaac Bennett (International House of Prayer)
Heidi Baker (Missionary and leader of Iris Global)
Georgian and Winnie Banov (‘Joy Apostles’ of Global Celebration)

The conversation began with Hartley reflecting on his strained relationship with his father, a prominent figure within the Narismatic movement. At the age of 27, Hartley confronted his father over his actions, but Jedidiah believed the apology he witnessed was disingenuous. He recounted how his father, despite his prophetic claims, was involved in dishonest practices and became entangled in the dominionist teachings that Hartley had once respected. “I always respected Bill Johnson because he seemed like a high-character individual… but he got sucked into dominionism and corrupt practices” (0:39-0:46), Hartley said.

As the interview progressed, Hartley detailed his father’s descent into fraudulent behavior, which included manipulating prophetic words for personal gain. His father’s sexual immorality, including infidelity and sending explicit images to women, was also revealed. “He was literally going to singles meetings and talking with women there and being like, ‘I’m a good friend of Bill’s'” (3:28-3:35). Hartley, in his attempt to help his father, was exposed to the extent of his father’s abuses and struggles.

“If you need to sow your wild oats, go to Thailand.” – Bill Johnson

A pivotal moment came when Hartley recounted a visit to Bethel Church with his father. During this visit, his father used his supposed prophetic authority to grant Bill Johnson “permission” to date a younger woman shortly after the death of Johnson’s wife. “My dad just does prophecy and gives Bill permission to date this woman” (9:32-9:40). Hartley was deeply disturbed by the event, noting the manipulation at play in the leadership structure of Bethel.

Note: Bethel staff and ex-Bethel staff have also confirmed that Johnson has shown interest towards younger women in the past while Beni Johnson was alive.

Perhaps the most shocking revelation was when Hartley disclosed that Bill Johnson had given his father advice on how to deal with his sexual immorality. After his father admitted to infidelity, Johnson allegedly told him, “If you need to sow your wild oats, go to Thailand” (13:24-13:32). Jedidiah went on to explain the importance of this phrase to Dawn by Bill Johnson (emphasis in red),

Hartley: “So we get into—we have this whole thing, and some of the stuff that—so first of all, Bill, I haven’t said this before, but I feel comfortable saying it now, but Bill had told my father, according to my dad, and then my dad referenced it in this meeting, that because my dad was dealing with this sexual indiscretion and that he was like having a hard time being faithful to the women that he was dating, Bill Johnson gave him the advice to—he was like, “If you need to sow your wild oats, go to Thailand.”

That is something that my dad told me multiple times that Bill Johnson told him. And then, when we were in this meeting, my dad made a joke reference to it that, like, Bill went along with, and like, so I didn’t—”

Dawn: “Okay, yeah, so Bill, he didn’t seem like disgusted by this little joke because all we know, I mean, I 100% believe you, and I believe that this happened, but so we’re hearing this from your dad, but then your dad references this, and Bill’s not like shocked by this joke.”

Hartley: “And this is kind of why I haven’t talked about it publicly, is because like, I know that Bill can be like, “Well, your dad was lying,” and I confronted Kris Vallotton about this—this is later—about what Bill had said. And Chris was like, “Well, your dad says a bunch of stuff.” And he’s true, my dad lies all the time about all sorts of things. I also know my dad better than I know any other human being on the face of the earth, and like, I am pretty good at knowing when my dad is lying and when he’s not. And like, I know the things that he lies about. I believe that Bill Johnson absolutely said that to my dad, and I believe that more than just saying it. I believe that my dad felt permission to do a lot of the things that he was doing because of conversations that he had had with Bill Johnson. Now, I’m not trying to dismiss the accountability that my dad has for all of these actions—absolutely, yeah, like this is on—it’s not Bill’s fault my dad did these different things at the same time. I am speaking with total confidence, especially because of what happened after this, that Bill was not at all phased or interested in helping my dad or putting boundaries around my dad, or helping him make amends or keep from doing these abusive sexual things that he ended up doing, or that he was doing—not just like the prophetic abuse, just the sexual abuse as well.”

We can learn plainly that Bill’s interaction between Bob Hartley and his son how quick he is to disregard ethical boundaries within his own leadership, where personal failings were condoned rather than addressed. And this is the major problem Jedidiah Hartley had noticed repeatedly with Johnson’s inability to confront his father over.

Note: This is not the only report we have heard of Bill Johnson giving advice to apostolic or prophetic leaders in or outside his movement. We have it on good authority from ex-Bethel staff he has shared other controversial advice to leaders such as Ben Fitzgerald.

Kris Vallotton and Bethel leadership used “really cheap gaslighting tactics”

Jesus would often accuse the false prophets and teachers of his day as being actors (hypocrites). This was what Hartley was able see the act of Bethel leadership when discussing his father, specifically the gaslighting tactics of Bethel ‘prophet’ Kris Vallotton.

Hartley shared the following (emphasis in red):

“I will say that Kris did not treat me like I was the bad guy. Like, he definitely wasn’t like, um—and same with Jason. Jason was mad at me for calling out Kris specifically. Um, it’s his dad, so, yeah, right. And so, like, I got that. Um, but they were like, it’s really weird because like I was able to have like full conversations with them. There was a lot of like really cheap gaslighting tactics that they did that like just didn’t work because, like, it’s kind of like, dude, I grew up in the fire. Like, I was born in the crucible. Don’t think that you can like get me on this because-

“I know your tricks.”

Well, yeah. Like—’cause he tried—Kris, at several points, tried to push it back on me, like, “Why didn’t you speak up earlier?” And I’m like, well, one, I’m his son. But I—at several points, I was like, I wish I had. I wish I had, and I’m doing it now. Like, and it requires me to like speak up against my own dad. Like, if I’m doing it, if I have the courage to do it, why don’t you have the courage to do it? And, and he tried to be like, “Well, we didn’t ever want to speak up about your dad because we didn’t want that to reflect on your family, and it really was for you and your family’s sake.” And I was like, “Never once did any of you guys ever contact me or my mom or our family.” Like, I know for a fact it wasn’t about our family because you didn’t—you didn’t even let us know.“

With the lack of care and response to his family, Jedidiah Hartley started to see the bigger picture as he was able to see “behind the scenes” actions and behaviours of Bill Johnson and Kris Vallotton: they didn’t care about Bob Hartley’s predatorial grift and were in fact encouraging that culture.

“The whole thing has been predicated on the prophetic grift… Bill Johnson’s not alone in this.

When they were confronted about issues like this, they did not care…”

Here is what Jedidiah Hartley learnt firsthand when peeking behind the curtain of Bethel’s senior leadership (emphasis in red):

“I didn’t realize that, like, I knew behind the scenes because I had seen it with my dad, but like, I didn’t realize that, oh, so to back up, in 2017, right when my dad was—this was right after my dad did his thing with me and tried to do his prophetic grift on me, he got outed to the Bethel community for cheating, and he got in trouble for it. And Kris Vallotton basically was like, “Okay, Bob can never have a platform here at Bethel.” That, according to Kris, during that story, and like, I don’t think that my dad spoke at many conferences during that time. But at the same time, like, again, I was in the leadership meetings. Like, I saw my dad in leadership meetings. I saw him behind the scenes. He still was operating in the role of a prophet. He might not have been a public minister, but like he had already built a lot of his ministry, and he was going and speaking at different places. Like, the damage was already done.

And so, basically, I just was like, you guys have to say something, and you have to say something publicly. Like, you can’t just, like, tell a couple pastors behind the scenes that we need to—you know, like, and they were like, “We’re going to tell our security team that he’s not allowed there.” And I was like, “It doesn’t matter unless—I mean, that’s a step, but I was like, because he’s going to all of these—if he’s still in the community and people in the community still think he’s this celebrity, he’s going to use that to his advantage.” And then, eventually, it basically what happened is they ended up sending out an email to like all of Bethel’s staff about my dad and warning him and like officially banned him. And I so I took that as like a success.

I, you know, was it what needed to happen? No, like they needed to publicly address it. Like Bill Johnson needs to publicly address not just my dad, but Mike Bickle, and all of these different—and, and Shawn Bolz, and all of these different individuals because of people like you and people like me and all of the people listening who have had and experienced the prophetic grift.

Just the whole prophetic grift, like Bethel—and they don’t do it because they know they would lose a following. Like, Bethel would not be what it is had they not habitually established and used prophetic grifters. The whole thing has been predicated on the prophetic grift. And this is the same thing when people are like, “Well, he might have cheated in these little areas, but still the heart of it was good.” I know. I’ve seen—whether people believe me or not, I know that that’s not true. The heart of it is not a miracle. The heart of it is not miraculous. The heart of it is fraud, and like anything else is coincidental. Like, the heart of it is about deceiving people, and I saw my dad do that, and I’ve seen, uh, Shawn Bolz, and I saw that when Bill Johnson was confronted with this, and when Kris Vallotton was confronted with this, and when, you know, other individuals—like, Bill Johnson’s not alone in this. When they were confronted about issues like this, they did not care, and that was what was so heartbreaking and disorienting.“

Jubilee Dawn interviewing Jedidiah Hartley

Jedidiah Hartley also criticized the culture of “spiritual covering” in the narismatic movement, which allowed leaders to protect one another, even when they were involved in unethical behavior. “It’s like just covering for these people too… it’s both, but it’s spiritualized so it feels good and holy” (10:16-10:22). What appears to be a reaction against what he saw behind the scenes, Jedidiah articulated that the last last two years have been like, “I’m going to talk about this as much as I can because, like, the leaders of the community do not care that they are letting frauds run their community” (45:00).

On Church Watch Central with our coverage of NAR cults like:

Hillsong (Brian Houston, Frank Houston, Carl Lentz)
Christian City Church (Phil Pringle, Dean Sweetman)
City Harvest Church (Kong Hee)
Yoido Full Gospel Church (David Yonggi Cho)
Embassy of the Blessed Kingdom of God (Sunday Adelajah)
Bethany Indonesian Church (Aswin Tanuseputra)
Voice of Evangelism (Perry Stone)
IHPOKC (Mike Bickle)
Gateway Church (Robert Morris)

It is clear – the church has been overrun with the kingdom of dangerous and abusive cults that have no problem platforming predators and abusers in or lack any form of accountability to create a massive grifting network. Jedidiah Hartley and Jubilee Dawn only confirm how dangerous this culture really is imbedded in the New Apostolic Reformation cult (emphasis in red) from their experiences. Their insights are helpful here:

Hartley: It’s why I’ve, like, for the last two years been like, “I’m going to talk about this as much as I can because, like, the leaders of the community do not care that they are letting frauds run their community.”

Dawn: No, they don’t, which I think at some point, maybe I thought, “Okay, they’re like good people, and they don’t know how to handle conflict.” That entire illusion is so gone for me at this point, because it’s like—especially just hearing your story, I mean, that was like the nail in the coffin, you know? But when it came out that Kris and Bill had been warned about Shawn and that they silently distanced, and Kris’s text messages came out about, um, what did he say? That it would hurt the prophetic movement, and he’s like, “Well, I have—I have nothing to do with him. I don’t want anything to do with him.” And it’s—it’s always this, “Well, they’re not really in our house,” but what people don’t realize who are not familiar with these circles is, if you’re being invited to all of these conferences and you’re co-leading all these conferences together, even if they’re not technically in your house, I guess if you want to say that, I mean, they’re still embedded in this culture and you all have the same followers. I mean, it’s all the same. What is it? The New Apostolic Reformation? You know, it’s the whole thing, you know?

So, if you want to say, “Well, it’s not our responsibility,” well, it is. Because people in your church and your worldwide church—because you have Bethel TV, and you have all this stuff—are following these people. I mean, I can’t tell you the amount of people who have no idea that Shawn is a fraud. I mean, he still has over 200,000 followers on Instagram, and people, that- they still think he’s great because he’s posting his little thumbnails, you know, like, “God’s going to give you something good this year,” you know? And it’s, I mean, Bethel needs to put out a statement, but they’re not going to because now that—I mean, this is my belief—it’s all corrupt. All of it, you know? So they’re dropping like flies. It’s like IHOP and Sean, and then now this Sean Feucht stuff is coming out, and it’s just, it is disorienting to realize.

I think like naively growing up, I always just wanted to believe that people are good, you know? People are doing their best, like, people do make mistakes, but I think really diving into this world and hearing all of these stories, it’s like, actually, there are people who—the heart of it, like you’re saying, is deception. Yeah, and it’s crazy,

Hartley: And I think that my—I’ve maintained, because I’m so with you of the like, I don’t want to just paint with a broad brush and be like they’re all evil, and I—I still hold a lot of that, like, um, kind of mentality about people in general is that there’s a lot of like kind, good, compassionate people who are in the charismatic or non-denominational world. Um, they’re just not in leadership, and I know that not everyone’s going to agree with me who’s listening.

Dawn: No, I agree, but like, that’s the best way to phrase it.

Hartley: The leadership is situated and structured so that frauds and narcissists and abusers, um, and people gunning for wealth, like, can be pushed to the surface, and it’s a boy’s club. Like, they all take care of each other, and like, they all have dirt on each other, and that’s why like it hasn’t come out. A lot of this stuff hasn’t come out, and now it’s starting to because people like me and people like you and people who were in the community—like, all of this information about Sean Feucht is coming out, um, and it’s from people who like worked with him and were in the same organization with him and who were Christians with him and believed the same mission.

And I think Sean Feucht tweeted something about—he said something about like, ‘When the woke mob or the whoever, you know, whoever he thinks the Soros or whatever, like, is this like the left is coming for, or the’—I don’t know, some—whatever he thinks.

Dawn: And that it’s also like warfare, like this attack on us,

Hartley: Which is like, that’s just not true. And why it’s—why this is what has been happening over the last couple of years is happening is because all the people from within the community—like people know my name, people know, um, uh, Deborah who spoke out against Mike Bickle. Like, they know her because she was a part of the community. Like, these—your—you yourself, like, mhm, it’s people from within the communities who have been like, “This is terrible for us.”

Not just like the dominionists—like, it’s dangerous to other religions and other groups and communities, which it absolutely is. It is dangerous for the people who are within the community.

Imagine having the audacity to be a Seven Mountains, to be a Heaven Invade Earth, to be someone who is like with Bethel, where it’s like, “We are going to change all of the United States to look exactly like us.” And the leader of your organization doesn’t give a s–t whether or not one of the main prophets is sexually abusing his own flock. Like, that’s where it’s like, what? You can’t—you can’t protect the people within your own circle, and now you’re trying to be this expansionist dominionist individual who wants to make all of politics and religion look exactly like this in your sort of format, in your image?

Um, so, it’s—it—that’s where it’s just like, no, the people that we’re dealing with here are really, really fraught. Um, and each one of them, they made decisions to do that, like, at different points. Like, the Banovs are like this. Like, there’s many instances where they had opportunities where they saw really terrible things going on and could have spoken up for goodness, and they didn’t. And not only that, that actually worked to their advantage. That, like, elevated them more. Um, and I’ve seen it so many different times, and I would say this: If Bill Johnson was right in front of me, I would say this to his face, and I would love to have the opportunity to do that, but-

Dawn: Let’s chat! But it feels like they all just have dirt on each other.

I can’t tell you, like, I don’t want to give away people’s stories, you know, if I don’t have permission, but vaguely, they’ve said I can reference it. But I mean, the amount of stories I’ve heard about the Bakers— it’s blowing my mind. And I actually, I think that that was actually a little heartbreaking for me because that’s how I entered this world. I entered it through a Heidi Baker conference, and I always thought, “Well, she is just this childlike type of figure, like so innocent,” and I think when we talk about your dad and the performance, the way he would talk in this kind of, you know, I’m like, they’re all kind of performances, you know? Because Bill, I think we would look at Bill, and we would say, “Well, he’s not like a performer,” but maybe his performance is that he’s humble, he’s, you know, like.

I think they all have their persona that feeds really well into these different sectors, like even the Banovs, like the joy, the whatever. And I don’t know much about the Banovs, actually, ’cause I barely saw them. Um, when I did my internship, they always showed up late and never really said hi to me, but, um, yeah, I think that they all just have dirt on each other, and it’s like, well, if I turn on you, what are you going to say about me, you know?

Hartley: Well, and it’s, it’s sort of the hamburger helper doctrine, or I guess it’s not really a doctrine, but the hamburger helper perspective. I think for people who are really hesitant to accept the things that I’m saying, um, that way that people condoned what was clearly wrong and just eased into it. I think it can give—because it’s hard to accept that all of these different leaders in all of your communities, like, are just evil people and like that they’re sinister, trying to make money. It’s easier for people like, um, um, Lance Wallnau, who it’s like, this person’s clearly just trying to get your money. Or like Jimmy Baker’s of the world. Like, there are clear frauds where it’s like it’s easier to be like, “Yeah, this person’s quite unapologetically a shyster, you know?”

And, but people with like, like Bill, it’s harder because they seem like they have these really high characters, and maybe they have-even do have some high character patience and virtue in certain areas. Yeah, but like, it’s the pot- the frog in boiling water of like the system itself is so built on fraud and corruption and deception that to survive in that world, you have to become fraudulent yourself. Like, you have to be okay with all of it, and that transforms your character.“

“Don’t let my dad prey on people in your community…”

Jedidiah Hartley also shared how Bill Johnson dismissed his concerns in a private email, showing a lack of accountability in the movement (emphasis in red):

“… And I hear stories about how he is actively praying on people in both the IHOP community and the Bethel community. And this is when I—because literally earlier in the year, I had just met with Bill Johnson, so like, I knew he would know who I am more than just like know who I am. Like, he would—we had like just met face to face and had like long conversations. And so I got a hold of his email, and I got a hold of him and Kris Vallotton, and was basically like really blunt about it. Like, my dad is, uh, fraudulent. He is fraudulent with his prophecies, and he is using these fraudulent prophecies to abuse women in your community, and he’s using the authority that he garnered from you to do this. Like, he literally—my dad during this time was literally going to singles meetings and talking with women there and being like, inviting them to prayer meetings at his house and saying that he was a friend of Bill’s. Like, he’s like, “I’m a good friend of Bill’s” during that time. Um, and I confront Bill, Bill responds to the email, he’s kind of defensive. He’s like—’cause in it, I was like, “Look, I know that you’ve been covering for my dad for a lot of—” and I meant in the like covering in the spiritual, not just like the spiritual covering that they like—Bethel gives a covering, but it’s also just like covering his ass, and like letting him get away with—that’s a phrase that’s used in these circles…

… So I like told Bill, I was like, “Because you’ve been covering him, and covering this, he is like using that like—not as—”

Like, I wasn’t trying to be accusational in that email. And then Bill responds, he’s like, “You got that wrong. I haven’t been covering for your father.” And I was like, “I’m not asking—like, I’m not, I’m not, that’s not me saying, ‘Hey, have you been covering for him?’ That was me being like, ‘I know my father. I know what he talks about. I know that he feels this covering. This is what I’m describing. I’m describing like I literally showed up- and there was a parking spot for us. We were able to, like, go in and speak to the leadership. Like, I know that he’s a part of this, like Bethel celebrity community…

… Yeah, and in my follow-up email, I did say that. I was like, “You literally said that he was one of the two prophets,” and he never responded to this email. But I was like, I basically, I was pretty pragmatic about it. I wasn’t like, “Hey, I don’t like your politics. I don’t like what you’re doing.” Like, I wasn’t doing any personal beef. I was like, “Don’t let my dad prey on people in your community, and if you don’t do anything about this, if you’re lazy or [inaudible] about it, he will continue to do this.” And that’s on you. And me now, like too. I mean, it’s on him, but like, I am now warning you.

The conversation closed with Hartley reflecting on his personal healing journey and his continued efforts to raise awareness about the abusive practices he witnessed:

“I can truly say that I gave my dad every chance possible… no one has cared more about the outcome of my dad’s life than me” (25:10-25:18).

While he has distanced himself from his father and the NAR, Jedidiah Hartley states that he remains committed to helping others escape the toxic environment he once lived in, his testimony serving as a stark warning about the dangers of no accountability within Bethel, IHOPKC and the charismatic/narismatic church movements. By sharing his story, Hartley said hoped to expose the truth behind the façade of spiritual authority, offering a voice for those who have been manipulated and mutilated by church leaders. His willingness to speak out against the abusive cult-like systems that harmed him underscores the importance of accountability and transparency in religious leadership.

As we have repeatedly stated on Church Watch Central, the New Apostolic Reformation is a doomsday cult governed by infallible, authoritarian and regime-like Apostles and Prophets. This interview served to reinforce again the disturbing picture of the inner workings of the NAR and the deep-rooted corruption within the charismatic movement. It highlights the personal and systemic damage caused by leaders who prioritize influence and power over integrity, leaving behind a wake of emotional, physical and spiritual destruction.

VIDEO AND TRANSCRIPT

In this special two-part interview, I sit down with Jedidiah Hartley, a former insider in the charismatic prophetic movement and the son of Bob Hartley, a once-renowned “prophet” within IHOP, Bethel, and broader New Apostolic Reformation (NAR) circles. Jedidiah grew up watching his father gain global acclaim for prophetic insights , but behind the stage lights was a man faking words, using conference registration lists to look people up, and abusing his power to manipulate, control, and harm. Jedidiah opens up about the painful tension of loving someone who has caused harm, someone he still hoped would turn things around, while also feeling a deep responsibility to protect others by telling the truth. This is a powerful look at what happens when charisma is platformed over character, and why Jedidiah is now speaking out against spiritual manipulation within the NAR. We also talk about how his story helped me process my own (including a false prophecy I received from his father).

Source: Jubilee Dawn (@JubileeDawn), Healed-ish: Ep. 11 Raised By A False Prophet, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saNdO-qepuU, YouTube, Uploaded June 30, 2025. (Accessed July 2, 2025.)

HEALED-ISH EPISODE 11 TRANSCRIPT.

Welcome back to Healed-ish. This is part two of my conversation with Jedi Hartley. If you haven’t listened to part one, I highly recommend starting there. We covered so much groundwork that is going to lead into what we are going to talk about today. So, with all of that being said, let’s dive into part two.

And I wanted to get into Bethel. Oh my gosh, you’re amazing because you were like, “Bill Johnson, this is a problem,” because at that point, didn’t you still have faith in Bill Johnson? Well, I say having faith is definitely probably not how I would put it, but like I always respected Bill Johnson because he seemed like a high-character individual. He seemed less political and less like a dominionist than others, like flashy, yeah. And now I look back and I’m like, “Oh, I just was listening over a lot of the dominionist and just corrupt stuff.” But he, you know, it was about hearing the heart of God, and he seemed to have wisdom, compassion, and empathy.

So, um, this, and this was not long ago. Like, so after I—so after I confronted my dad—this, that was back when I was like 27, so that’s, um, five, six years ago. Again, he didn’t ever say it, he never, he never said it, but he did apologize. He never specified what he was apologizing for, but he was like, “Okay, I’m sorry.” And he granted it to me, and it felt like a big win for him and my relationship. I know that sounds weird, but it was a turn of like, he tried to con me and it didn’t work, and I’m not going to stand for that. It was like I set a clear boundary, and I didn’t—for like two years, I didn’t speak with him. And then, slowly, we kind of built up a relationship again, to the point where I was still really being his primary confidant. Well, I thought, um, it turns out he was not telling me 90% of what was going on in his life, but like, I was really trying to help him with addiction issues. I was really trying to help him with just the decisions that he was making with his businesses and stuff like that. He was getting sucked into some like dominionist stuff in Bethel where he was like investing in these people who were clearly con artists, and I was like, “Okay, don’t do that,” you know? There was a lot of stuff that I was trying to help him with. And he was still my dad, like I just was like, “Even though you have been corrupt throughout all of these years, I want you to have a final chapter of your story that is somewhat redemptive.” And I would talk with him all the time about that.

So about two years ago—yeah, two years exactly—um, wait, what? Yeah, two years, almost exactly to the day, I traveled with my dad to Redding, California. And I didn’t realize this was this recently—Is this when you first warned Bill? Yeah, yeah, oh my gosh, I thought this was in 2017 or something like that. I did not realize this was so recent. No, this was, this was right after the—oh, sorry, this was right before the Mike Bickle scandal. Oh my gosh, so I’m trying to think if this is three years ago or two? No, yeah, 2023, um, so two years ago, almost exactly. Um, I am living in Los Angeles, but I go to Kansas City to meet with my dad, where he’s living. He has houses in both Kansas City and Redding. He’s accrued a decent amount of wealth over his years, so he has several different houses that he lives in. And so, he would kind of bounce between these two communities. He wanted to show me he had a new house in Redding, so he was like, “Let’s fly out there and let’s see it.” And I have been out of the charismatic world for, I don’t know, probably a good six years since then. I mean, especially since that whole thing with my dad, where he did the prophetic thing—that was a good severing of me being like, “I wash my hands of this world entirely, I want nothing to do with it.” Um, so like, it’d been a while since I had seen manifestations of the Holy Spirit, you know? Like, people doing—or manifestations of the, yeah, whatever that is—the twitching, yelling, and someone told me recently, it was so funny.

I put a little question thing on my Instagram, I was like, “What’s the craziest thing you saw in Charismatic?” Someone said that somebody would manifest and make dolphin sounds at Bethel. Yeah, so I’m like, there’s—it’s a strange world, so when you’ve been away from it, it’s jarring. Like, I actually feel like my body goes into PTSD stress, fight or flight whenever I even just see videos of this type of world. It really takes me back to all of that. Yeah, I literally—it had been so—we went, we go to Bethel, and he’s meeting with people, and again, we show up, and there’s like a Bob Hartley parking spot and everything. Walking with him feels like walking with a celebrity, which I hated, because I was like, “Please, I don’t want—I’m not even like, I—I wanted to be like, I’m not one of you guys, just, you know, like, I’m not trying to be a jerk or anything like that, but I’m here with my—” and I don’t care about any of this. And I—and you know his humanity, right? I know who he actually is. And so this hero, you know, I’m just, it was such a weird time. But I walk into, um, because they’re having some prophetic conference, and I walk with him. He’s like, “Well, let’s go, let’s just go in for like a worship service.” And so I was like, “Sure.” And we walk in, and literally, someone falls, and I like catch someone falling out. Like, it was very cinematic, and the like, like, I walk in, we go around the corner, and someone falls, and I catch them, and like put them down, and I like immediately, I’m like, “Dad!” And I turn around, and I like, I’m like, I’m going to go read in the coffee shop. I’m going to go to Hebrews, yeah. Um, but anyway, so that, that same week, we meet with Bill Johnson, and my dad is dealing with addiction issues, he’s dealing with like these big issues.

– I know that what I believed back then was that he was having some sexual immorality, like he was sleeping with multiple women and was doing some shady stuff, but not like criminally shady stuff or abusive stuff. Just like very, um, uh, gross, just, just like, you know, not what you would expect the highly esteemed prophet to be like.

Yeah, and like visiting prostitutes and stuff like that, like there was just like—I knew that was going on. Also, didn’t know how to handle any of that. And like, I was of course telling him, like, “Do not do those things. Like you can’t, you can’t please do not do those things. You can’t be a pastor and minister in this world and be doing that. That’s like not even from a—you’ll get caught, but from a, like, that’s horrible. Like, that’s so inconsistent and so hypocritical.” And, um, again, like not from me being like, “What you’re doing is abusive,” because I didn’t—later I realized that he was doing way more abusive stuff. But at that time, I had—I was just like trying to get him to find some center. I was like, “Get to rehab or something like that.” Um, to like, you know, he’s getting up there in age, and I was like, “This is not how you want to go out. Like this is, you know, worried that he’s going to drink and drive and get in an accident, kill himself.” Like I, this is—and I’m kind of like going to Bethel, and I’m thinking Bill Johnson will help this because, like, in my head, Bill Johnson is someone who is—of even though I totally disagree with him, politics and religion-wise, like, and even think that he’s doing some shady stuff to get money from people, like, character-wise, I can rely on this man who cares about my dad to help my dad get back on the straight and narrow. This is like my mentality.

Mhm, and then we go in, and my dad blindsides me. He was supposed—we were supposed to in the meeting talk about how he was going to—he was going to like confess some stuff to Bill and talk about how we have a plan and how he was going to get better and kind of just like ask for help. None of that happens.

My dad instead just does prophecy, and he has this vision that he shares with Bill about how he is giving Bill permission to date this woman because Bill’s wife had passed away. And this was shortly after she had passed away. Bill was involved with a younger woman. Not much younger, I think she was like 20-something, and I don’t know how old she was, but yeah, much younger. I mean, he’s in his 60s, and she was in her 20s. Um, I think maybe—I actually—I’d have to check. I think maybe she was in her 40s, maybe. Oh, but no, I think that they had like a 30- to 40-year age gap or something. We’ll have to look it up later. Yeah, like, it was jarring, and when it came out, it was a big deal. Like, I remember he had released a statement. So, this is all before it kind of hit the news, right? Like, people didn’t know that they were dating yet, or did they? There were rumors and stuff.

Well, literally the day before we meet with Bill, they send out a Bethel-wide email about this. And like, and so this is how my dad had the prophetic knowledge, is that he just reads the email, and he says that, “Hey, I had a dream about this woman, and the Lord was telling me to do the same thing that I did for Bob Jones with Bonnie Jones.” Because Bob Jones also had his wife pass away, and then—I can’t remember what happened with his first wife—and then he remarried, and my dad apparently served to give prophetic permission for Bob Jones to remarry. And he was giving Bill prophetic permission to remarry or pursue this young woman. And again, yeah, I don’t know how old she was—significantly younger, though. I mean, it was a big deal, and I find this so interesting. The email was sent out, and your dad’s kind of in crisis because he’s living this double life. This is supposed to be this meeting for you guys to start a new plan, and instead, he gives prophetic permission to another prophet minister. And yeah, he’s giving him permission, and he’s helping him while he’s in crisis.

Because I didn’t realize Bill was actively in crisis during this meeting because, I mean, the email had just gone out. I remember people were talking about that so much, so it’s kind of like, “I’ll help you out, you help me out” kind of vibes, you know? Right. And I had known that Bill had been told that my dad was manufacturing prophetic words. Like, Bill, I didn’t know to what extent Bill knew of that, but like, I knew that by this time, Bill had a good understanding that my dad had cheated on prophecy. I knew that he probably thought of it as like, “Well, he’s genuine, he’s got this real power,” but he’s also like cheated on prophecy at different times.

So we get into—we have this whole thing, and some of the stuff that—so first of all, Bill, I haven’t said this before, but I feel comfortable saying it now, but Bill had told my father, according to my dad, and then my dad referenced it in this meeting, that because my dad was dealing with this sexual indiscretion and that he was like having a hard time being faithful to the women that he was dating, Bill Johnson gave him the advice to—he was like, “If you need to sow your wild oats, go to Thailand.”

Okay, yeah, so Bill, he didn’t seem like disgusted by this little joke because all we know, I mean, I 100% believe you, and I believe that this happened, but so we’re hearing this from your dad, but then your dad references this, and Bill’s not like shocked by this joke.

And this is kind of why I haven’t talked about it publicly, is because like, I know that Bill can be like, “Well, your dad was lying,” and I confronted Kris Vallotton about this—this is later—about what Bill had said. And Chris was like, “Well, your dad says a bunch of stuff.” And he’s true, my dad lies all the time about all sorts of things. I also know my dad better than I know any other human being on the face of the earth, and like, I am pretty good at knowing when my dad is lying and when he’s not. And like, I know the things that he lies about. I believe that Bill Johnson absolutely said that to my dad, and I believe that more than just saying it. I believe that my dad felt permission to do a lot of the things that he was doing because of conversations that he had had with Bill Johnson. Now, I’m not trying to dismiss the accountability that my dad has for all of these actions—absolutely, yeah, like this is on—it’s not Bill’s fault my dad did these different things at the same time. I am speaking with total confidence, especially because of what happened after this, that Bill was not at all phased or interested in helping my dad or putting boundaries around my dad, or helping him make amends or keep from doing these abusive sexual things that he ended up doing, or that he was doing—not just like the prophetic abuse, just the sexual abuse as well.

So, anyway, long story short with Bill, my Bill was like so did the hero worship of my dad in that moment. And I really almost—I almost confronted both of them. I mean, I’m here a 30, you know, 32-year-old at the time, or 31-year-old, or whatever, that wanted to be like, “What the hell is wrong with you both?” Like, they’re like, “Did I enter crazy land? What performance is this right now?” But like, I didn’t say anything during the time because I was like, “Well, I don’t know what I’m—I have no idea what I’m supposed to do.” It was the first time that I felt really on the back foot with my dad in a long time since the, like, maybe coffee shop situation. And I was just like, I am flabbergasted by this. And then, in that moment too, Bill Johnson told my dad that my dad and Bob Jones were the two most important prophetic voices in Bethel’s history—like to his face, to my dad’s face, right in front of me. Bill is like, “I want to reassure you, like, he’s trying to reassure my dad of how important my dad is to this world,” which is the last thing my dad needs in this moment. And he’s like, “You and Bob Jones are the two greatest prophetic voices, or most significant prophetic voices in Bethel’s history.”

And since this has happened, Bethel has tried to, like, distance themselves from my dad once—well, I’ll get into that in a second. But like, um, so many people—he knew, he knew, at this point, he did know. He did know, like, it had been raised alarms for a long time. So the fact that he’s saying “you and Bob Jones are the most prophetic people”—that’s insanity that he’s saying that. It also, like, I am good now at not falling for it, but so many people have tried to, like, gaslight me and be like, “Your dad wasn’t really a big deal at Bethel, like your dad, you know, like he just shared the pulpit a few times,” and I’m like, “I know for a fact that’s not true.”

You know, maybe Bill Johnson was like exaggerating to help my dad in the moment, but like I know because my dad would come in and give prophetic promises or prophetic permission to the leaders of the community, and he was like, he allowed Bill to maneuver in ways, um, whether it’s explicitly—whether it’s with the, like, dating this girl, or whether it’s strategic stuff with where they’re going to, how they’re going to expand the church, or do this. They’re making this big decision, and the church board splits on it. Well, here comes Waltson, this prophet who only shaved half of his face and is, you know, all discombobulated, but has these like grand miracles and is like, “Thus says the Lord, Bill is right.” And it’s like, Bill loved that. He absolutely loved that, and seeing that with my own eyes was so eerie.

But then, just to fast forward, like five months, all of this scandal comes out about Mike Bickle and about how Mike Bickle is abusing people and using prophecy to groom 14-year-old girls. And, um, let’s remind people, Mike Bickle is from the International House of Prayer (IHOP) in Kansas City. These are connected ministries, but not so—so I mean, they were friends, right? Bill and Mike Bickle? Yeah, I mean, yeah, they very much were parallels of each other. Um, so, um, I wouldn’t say like Mike told Bill what to do or Bill told Mike what to do, but they were respective kings of their own castles, and, um, and Mike Bickle is where I grew up, and that was where my dad kind of cut his teeth in the prophetic, and so it was very close to home for many reasons.

Um, what was going on with Mike Bickle, and what happened is that my dad started publicly defending Mike Bickle, and like aggressively so. Like, he showed up at one of the churches of one of the women who was like one of the Jane Does who had been abused by Mike Bickle, and she was like, um, he—my dad showed up at the church, literally trying to like physically intimidate her and her husband for them speaking up against Mike. Uh, and this is where my dad really went off the rails. And then, what happened is that during that time, a lot of women started publicly coming out and talking about how my dad had been sexually abusing them and, you know, sending them images that they didn’t—there was like dozens of women who he was trying—just like harassing and sending images of himself to, and then just a whole lot of different stuff that was—that gets as intense as you can get.

And using prophecy, like I won’t get into the nitty-gritty details because I think people can kind of figure it out, um, but were you shocked by this when that came out? You know, earlier when you talked about, um, your—um, oh shoot, remind me her name—Is it Mackenzie? Um, yes, Mackenzie. You—like, her story is so shocking in that it’s so horrible, but it’s also not shocking for somebody who knows the world. It makes sense, awful, right? And that is the same thing with, um, what was coming out about my dad. Like, it was a bit shocking because there was, like, levels of abuse. I always grew up thinking that me and my sisters and my mom were the only ones who were, like, truly abused by my dad, um, and that’s what happens a lot of times with abuse is like people think that they’re alone. They think that they’re the only one and think that it’s their fault, you know? Like, “Oh, he’s such a great guy in all of these other areas, but he abuses me,” and I, you know—so that the shattering of that, to be like, “Oh, he has—he doesn’t just have no boundaries with me, he also has no boundaries with these other people,” was—it’s like when the twist in a movie that you saw coming, or like, you’ve seen the movie before and you know the protagonist dies, but like, every single time it happens, it still like hits you in the gut. That’s—that’s a lot of what it felt like.

Especially, like, so some of these women spoke to me, like literally called me and, and told me some of what was going on, but originally they were—Did they find you online or did you know some of them? Well, so, I had—I had known a bit of, like, I knew that he was sending images of himself. Um, this is crazy, and I—I—so during that summer where I was going to Redding, um, I knew that he was doing some of this, and he asked me for help—my help deleting a lot of those images off of his phone, um, and deleting contacts of prostitutes that he had like found online. And so I had thought he was sending those images to sex workers. Got it. Um, and he was like, “I just need to get all of this off, and can you delete all of these messages?” And, which, let’s talk about the trauma of that. I mean, we don’t have to get too deep into it, but he’s asking you to go through these photos, which I’m sure you did not want to see. You’re faced with this reality of like—you almost feel like you have to do it because he’s asking for your help for a clean slate, like, “Do this for my own good.” But you should never be asked to do that in the first place.

Yeah, no, I mean, my therapist and I have had some good long talks, and like, this is something that I don’t talk about on most of the podcasts because it’s just like—yeah, and I’m not ashamed—”ashamed” isn’t the right word. I am frustrated with my previous self for like giving him the benefit of the doubt, believing that he would change. I mean, maybe—I think that maybe I needed to go through this whole process to like—I can truly say that I gave my dad every chance possible. Um, and like really, really tried way harder than everyone else in his life. Like, no one has been more invested in my dad getting help and being a better person, both for his own good and for the good of, like, what he does. Like, I—no one has cared more about the outcome of my dad’s life than me.

Period. Like, including him, like because he is his own worst enemy. Um, and it’s hard for people to get that because obviously, I’ve now spoken up publicly about him, and, um, you know, I look like very much the villain in his life, which, in some respects, I kind of am. Um, no, he’s, yeah, I—I am not the villain in his life, but not wanting to give up on your dad, though, and I think that at least there is comfort in knowing that you did everything that you possibly could. I know I’ve had relationships where people are like, “You should have let that go.” With my maid of honor, who had stolen from me on my wedding day, I still—I still tried to reconcile with her. I talked to my therapist, I mean, I later realized that she had groomed me, so I mean, that’s like a whole other thing. But I wrote out an eight-page letter to her, and I was like, “If you admit that you stole all this money from our family member, which was like $400,000, if you admit that you did that, if you admit that—I wrote like eight things that I said, if you do these things, I really could forgive you. I really could move on.” And I meant it, because I loved her, you know? So I understand doing everything in your power, and I think for me, I have peace about losing that friendship because I know I gave it a good—I gave it a good try, you know? I tried my best, and I mean, at least at the end of the day, you know that you did everything in your power to see if you could really help him and try to pull him out of this and get to the genuine heart of him, but I mean, there were just always lies still going on. Yeah, and like, you know, I—it feels both naive, but like it’s also just like you want to believe the best in people, and that was what he would always say. And he’s not the only person who says this. A lot of like defenders of Mike Bickle and of all of these, um, just all—Chris Reed, I saw echoes of this too. You know, there’s the like “believe the best in people,” and it’s like, I did, and I tried, and I—and because of that, he was allowed to—not just because of me, but because everyone believed the best in him, he was allowed to like abuse so many, so many people.

And this is where it gets so—I realize that he is genuinely, like, dangerous. Like a genuinely dangerous person, and I hear stories about how he is actively praying on people in both the IHOP community and the Bethel community. And this is when I—because literally earlier in the year, I had just met with Bill Johnson, so like, I knew he would know who I am more than just like know who I am. Like, he would—we had like just met face to face and had like long conversations. Mhm, and so I got a hold of his email, and I got a hold of him and Kris Vallotton, and was basically like really blunt about it. Like, my dad is, uh, fraudulent. He is fraudulent with his prophecies, and he is using these fraudulent prophecies to abuse women in your community, and he’s using the authority that he garnered from you to do this. Like, he literally—my dad during this time was literally going to singles meetings and talking with women there and being like, inviting them to prayer meetings at his house and saying that he was a friend of Bill’s. Like, he’s like, “I’m a good friend of Bill’s” during that time. Um, and I confront Bill, Bill responds to the email, he’s kind of defensive. He’s like—’cause in it, I was like, “Look, I know that you’ve been covering for my dad for a lot of—” and I meant in the like covering in the spiritual, not just like the spiritual covering that they like—Bethel gives a covering, but it’s also just like covering his ass, and like letting him get away with—that’s a phrase that’s used in these circles. It’s kind of like the leadership who has like spiritual—I don’t know, covering? I don’t even know how to describe it.

But they—you took me back, I hadn’t heard that phrase in a while. It’s interesting because it’s like—it’s explicitly what it is in the common circles, like just covering for these people too. Like, yeah, it’s both. It’s both, but it’s like spiritualized, so it feels good and holy. Um, so I like told Bill, I was like, “Because you’ve been covering him, and covering this, he is like using that like—not as—” Like, I wasn’t trying to be accusational in that email. And then Bill responds, he’s like, “You got that wrong. I haven’t been covering for your father.” And I was like, “I’m not asking—like, I’m not, I’m not, that’s not me saying, ‘Hey, have you been covering for him?’ That was me being like, I know my father. I know what he talks about. I know that he feels this covering. This is what I’m describing. I’m describing like I literally showed up and there was a parking spot for us. We were able to, like, go in and speak to the leadership. Like, I know that he’s a part of this, like Bethel celebrity community, and this is what he’s—the top two prophet, right, exactly. Like, we just had this conversation, Bill.”

Yeah, and in my follow-up email, I did say that. I was like, “You literally said that he was one of the two prophets,” and he never responded to this email. But I was like, I basically, I was pretty pragmatic about it. I wasn’t like, “Hey, I don’t like your politics. I don’t like what you’re doing.” Like, I wasn’t doing any personal beef. I was like, “Don’t let my dad prey on people in your community, and if you don’t do anything about this, if you’re lazy or indifferent about it, he will continue to do this.” And that’s on you. And me now, like too. I mean, it’s on him, but like, I am now warning you.

That Sunday—I think it was like a Wednesday I emailed him—that Sunday, there’s another prophetic conference, and Bill Johnson saves my dad a seat right next to him. Right next to him after I—Wait, and in this, you’re saying he’s praying on women? He’s praying on women? Yeah, it wasn’t—it wasn’t like, “Hey, he’s just being deceptive.” It was—it was because what happened is that these women spoke up online, and I recognized the stories were true. This is—I—the analogy that I give with this is, um, I don’t know if you’ve ever been in like a place where you’ll see a family member from like far off, and you can’t see them, but you can kind of see their silhouette, and you just know by the way their silhouette and the way that they walk, you just know who they are. Like that, you’re like, “Oh, that’s my sister. That’s my, you know, brother,” or something like that, because I know—I don’t need to see their face to know that that’s them. Mhm.

And some of the details of these women’s stories that were coming out were so specific to the mannerisms of my dad. I mean, first of all, like, I know—you see him in it, I see him in it. And I, like, I would have believed these women anyway, because, like, people should believe women when they talk about abuse in these contexts, especially when there’s several women. I mean, also if there’s just one woman, but like, it was very—yeah, but especially when it’s—it’s very corroborated, you know? And I had literally just seen that he was sending out all of these like—I had deleted, I’ve seen the pictures myself. Unfortunately, there was no question that he—he was—I didn’t, again, I didn’t know that he was sending them to people that he was harassing. Like, I thought it was sex workers and stuff. But it was one of those things where I was like, “Oh, yes, this makes sense. Everything makes sense now. I understand that.”

And then I spoke up in support of one of the women, and then several women came and shared more testimonies with me individually, which, like, I’ve said this before—that is and will always be the hardest thing that I have ever encountered in my life, and like, ever will is like hearing the stories of how my father sexually abused women, um, and used all his same tricks, used all of his prophecy tricks, like, and same manipulative tactics that he had like used to abuse me and my sisters.

And like feeling like I had to do something about it was like—God, that was just horrible. I can’t even imagine, yeah. And so, and that’s the spirit in which I’m then coming to Bill. I don’t like his world. I don’t care about his like, you know, his spiritual celebrity culture. Yeah, yeah. And I certainly don’t care about the like invade the seven mountains and, you know, heaven invading earth. Like, I don’t give a s–t about any of that. And at the time, I wasn’t like actively fighting against it either. Um, now I am, but, um, I just like, I was just like, “This is just brass tacks. Like, my dad is abusing people in your community, make it stop, and like start taking ownership for the fact that like we should have—or you know, I—I framed it as we should have, because I felt very responsible in some ways of like, this should have—he shouldn’t be able to get away with this. And like, and so, like, it stops here, and it stops now.”

And I called the pastor at—Mike Bickle had been removed from leadership by that time at IHOP, and I talked with the pastor at the time there, Isaac Bennett, and he was like, “Yep, cool, your dad’s banned, you know, from the International House of Prayer,” which was wild.

Um, and so he was more receptive?

He was way more receptive. I mean, he was the guy—I think I’ve heard better things about him. Right? That he—or maybe not. I haven’t looked into it. I don’t know anything. I mean, they’re all—he was dealing with a bigger scandal with Mike, and so with them, and my dad was not as important to the prophetic identity of the International House of Prayer. You know, like, if it was—so he was like, “Yeah, sure, great, ban him.” Like, I’m so sick of these people getting in trouble. I’m busy, okay? I have a lot of other stuff going on. Plus, like, I grew up with Isaac, like, he was literally my sister’s soccer coach, you know? Like, and he also is not a big deal in the world and, like, has since, you know, yeah.

So I think that he was just like, “Yeah, sure, great.” Like, wash your hands of it. But then I was like also talking about the Mike Bickle stuff, and he was like, “I don’t know.” And it’s like, you know, got it. But with Bill, yeah, Bill just basically did not—he didn’t hear any of my concerns. My dad continued to do that. He like posted a video of him at, like, a youth event—clearly drunk—and he was playing with like young kids. I didn’t realize that, and that was like a turning point for me, and that’s when I started posting publicly online about it, and was like, “This has got to stop.” And I started calling out Bethel, and then of course, people were like, “Oh, don’t, you know?” As soon as it’s public, and it’s, “Oh, this might hurt the brand image of Bethel,” then people started caring about it.

I had like a two-hour conversation with Kris Vallotton and then like a two-hour conversation with Jason Vallotton. And they eventually—How did those go? I’m curious. I mean, because he—he knew the email. Okay, so, right? Kris was on that first email, so this is not new information. And what’s so frustrating about these circles is they use the Bible to say that we should confront people in private, you know? “Confront them in private, try to settle it, honor your brother,” I don’t know, there’s Bible verses somewhere in there. Mhm. Um, but it doesn’t work. Or it didn’t work at all in this sector. And then, now you’re the bad guy. You’re the villain for being public, and it’s like, no, nobody would have paid attention to this if somebody didn’t raise the alarm because apparently, you guys aren’t willing to raise the alarm, and he’s still showing up to youth stuff, and he’s showing up to the conferences, and it very much looks like he still has a stamp of approval by these very respected leaders.

Yeah, well, and it was interesting because, like, I will say that Kris did not treat me like I was the bad guy. Like, he definitely wasn’t like, um—and same with Jason. Jason was mad at me for calling out Kris specifically. Um, it’s his dad, so, yeah, right. And so, like, I got that. Um, but they were like, it’s really weird because like I was able to have like full conversations with them. There was a lot of like really cheap gaslighting tactics that they did that like just didn’t work because, like, it’s kind of like, dude, I grew up in the fire. Like, I was born in the crucible. Don’t think that you can like get me on this because-

I know your tricks.

I didn’t realize that, like, I knew behind the scenes because I had seen it with my dad, but like, I didn’t realize that, oh, so to back up, in 2017, right when my dad was—this was right after my dad did his thing with me and tried to do his prophetic grift on me, he got outed to the Bethel community for cheating, and he got in trouble for it. And Kris Vallotton basically was like, “Okay, Bob can never have a platform here at Bethel.” That, according to Kris, during that story, and like, I don’t think that my dad spoke at many conferences during that time. But at the same time, like, again, I was in the leadership meetings. Like, I saw my dad in leadership meetings. I saw him behind the scenes. He still was operating in the role of a prophet. He might not have been a public minister, but like he had already built a lot of his ministry, and he was going and speaking at different places. Like, the damage was already done.

It’s why I’ve, like, for the last two years been like, “I’m going to talk about this as much as I can because, like, the leaders of the community do not care that they are letting frauds run their community.”

No, they don’t, which I think at some point, maybe I thought, “Okay, they’re like good people, and they don’t know how to handle conflict.” That entire illusion is so gone for me at this point, because it’s like—especially just hearing your story, I mean, that was like the nail in the coffin, you know? But when it came out that Kris and Bill had been warned about Shawn and that they silently distanced, and Kris’s text messages came out about, um, what did he say? That it would hurt the prophetic movement, and he’s like, “Well, I have—I have nothing to do with him. I don’t want anything to do with him.” And it’s—it’s always this, “Well, they’re not really in our house,” but what people don’t realize who are not familiar with these circles is, if you’re being invited to all of these conferences and you’re co-leading all these conferences together, even if they’re not technically in your house, I guess if you want to say that, I mean, they’re still embedded in this culture and you all have the same followers. I mean, it’s all the same. What is it? The New Apostolic Reformation? You know, it’s the whole thing, you know?

And I think that my—I’ve maintained, because I’m so with you of the like, I don’t want to just paint with a broad brush and be like they’re all evil, and I—I still hold a lot of that, like, um, kind of mentality about people in general is that there’s a lot of like kind, good, compassionate people who are in the charismatic or non-denominational world. Um, they’re just not in leadership, and I know that not everyone’s going to agree with me who’s listening.

No, I agree, but like, that’s the best way to phrase it.

The leadership is situated and structured so that frauds and narcissists and abusers, um, and people gunning for wealth, like, can be pushed to the surface, and it’s a boy’s club. Like, they all take care of each other, and like, they all have dirt on each other, and that’s why like it hasn’t come out. A lot of this stuff hasn’t come out, and now it’s starting to because people like me and people like you and people who were in the community—like, all of this information about Sean Feucht is coming out, um, and it’s from people who like worked with him and were in the same organization with him and who were Christians with him and believed the same mission.

And that it’s also like warfare, like this attack on us,

Which is like, that’s just not true. And why it’s—why this is what has been happening over the last couple of years is happening is because all the people from within the community—like people know my name, people know, um, uh, Deborah who spoke out against Mike Bickle. Like, they know her because she was a part of the community. Like, these—your—you yourself, like, mhm, it’s people from within the communities who have been like, “This is terrible for us.”

Not just like the dominionists—like, it’s dangerous to other religions and other groups and communities, which it absolutely is. It is dangerous for the people who are within the community.

Let’s chat! But it feels like they all just have dirt on each other.

Well, and it’s, it’s sort of the hamburger helper doctrine, or I guess it’s not really a doctrine, but the hamburger helper perspective. I think for people who are really hesitant to accept the things that I’m saying, um, that way that people condoned what was clearly wrong and just eased into it. I think it can give—because it’s hard to accept that all of these different leaders in all of your communities, like, are just evil people and like that they’re sinister, trying to make money. It’s easier for people like, um, um, Lance Wallnau, who it’s like, this person’s clearly just trying to get your money. Or like Jimmy Baker’s of the world. Like, there are clear frauds where it’s like it’s easier to be like, “Yeah, this person’s quite unapologetically a shyster, you know?”

So it’s not like a mystery. It’s not just like the well, two different things: one, it’s a fraudulent world that creates fraudulent people, but it also attracts fraudulent people. Like, I had IHOP, had my dad not found IHOP, maybe he would be in the, um, you know, Scientology world or something like that, where—or some spiritualist community and cult community in California, like, like he would have found a different group that used and preyed on some of that sort of narcissistic grandiosity and where his lies and deception would have thrived there too. Like, it’s—it’s so—it’s both. It creates the worst versions of these people, but it also attracts the worst versions of these people.

Absolutely. And I think about my ex with—yeah, you know, I’m like, he’s the perfect person to enter the charismatic circle because, I mean, Bethel was all about “dream big, anything’s possible with God.” It’s very—and it’s also very, like, self-centered. Like, I’m on a mission. I’m God’s favorite. That’s like what people would say all the time, jokingly, but not jokingly. “I’m God’s favorite,” you know? And for my ex, who there was a lot going on there. I mean, I don’t—I don’t even know. Um, he thought he was going to own the entire company of Disney. He thought he was going to live forever. Um, I think I forgot to say this in my podcast, but like he was like, “I know I’m Jewish, like my DNA.” He said, “I know that I’m God’s chosen people.”

Is he, uh, like English Aryan? Is he white? Yes, he’s white. So what’s so funny is he was like, “I know God told me in my prayer time, okay, that I am God’s chosen people.” And I was like, okay, so I got—he’s adopted. Ah, so he never really knew. And I got him a 23andMe when we were married. It came back like 0%—like, absolutely not. Like none. Right? And he was like, “It’s wrong, ’cause God told me,” and I was like, “Okay.” You know, I—I mean, I was more than he was based on our results, but he was like, “Absolutely not, wrong, because the Lord told me.” And I think you attract these types of people who are very grandiose thinkers and think very highly of themselves, and you’re rewarded for it because it’s faith. Like, how amazing that you think that you’re going to live forever. You have faith. Um, and why not?

Well, and I don’t know how much people are familiar with the history of the, like, what birthed the New Apostolic Reformation and this sort of, like, fringe side of the Pentecostal movement, but like one of the key features in the early 1900s to 1950s, and then it became less a prominent thing, was something called British Israelism or American Israelism, which was like a form of Zionism, where they—it was built off of this, like, belief that the Aryan race was actually genetically descendants of Israel and that the true people of Israel are actually the U.S. white folks. Um, and the—so it’s not a—it’s not a new delusion. Like, that—that, um, that your ex was doing. I also, like, when I was listening to your previous episodes, um, so much—there was so much overlap between some of the things that your ex did and what my dad would do. Like, my dad also would talk about how he—he—it wasn’t that he was going to live forever, but he was like, “I’m going to live to 150 years old,” and he used to say that. And I used to always think that he was joking.

Like, he would—but then, like, later, he was like, “I really believe that God told me that I’m going to live to 150 years old.” And it’s just this, like, really grandiose delusions that these communities make so much money, and these organizations make so much money feeding into people’s delusions and being like, “Yeah, all of the history of the world and all of religion culminates in Jed Hartley right here.” Like, that’s what they’re trying to sell you, and like, it’s so egotistical, it’s so—um, and so then when you have clear narcissists that would be red flags in every other community who have these, like, grand narcissistic delusions and will, like, get up out of the pulpit and say the most wild outlandish things, you will have communities who are like, “Right on, man. Like, God—yeah, yeah!” And they will, like, feed into those individuals’ delusions. Like the, “I’m going to own Disney.” Like, that sort of stuff where it’s like, you know, obviously, they then become abusers and less like feeling compassion for them. But like, it—I mean, there’s versions of my dad that I actually have sympathy for in the past because I’m like, “Damn, yeah, you had some, like, mental health stuff that this community just was like—yeah, this isn’t a red flag.” Yeah, yeah, no, you’re great. And, like, fed into that.

Yeah and I’ve been working—I don’t know, working through that myself, um, ’cause I don’t know, obviously, the church is like, “You have to forgive or else you won’t be forgiven.” So, okay. I was like traumatized by that the last few years.

Um, people telling me that I needed to forgive my ex and that I’m going to be sharing heaven with my ex, right? And I’m like, “Okay, cool.” Um, awesome. Love that for me. But I think, like, in a healthy way, I’ve been trying to find peace in myself with the situation that I think he had stuff going on, you know? And I’ve learned stuff from family members. I’ve had his family, distant family, reach out to me and tell me that he was in therapy since he was really young for emotional outbursts and he’s never been right. And I know people want to talk about nature versus nurture, I really think it was a nature thing. That’s the story that I’ve received from family, and we don’t know his backstory. I don’t know who his biological parents were, and I think it has been healing in a way to be like, “No, it doesn’t excuse his actions, but I can also understand there’s something not quite right.” And this entire religious system that we were a part of really fed into these delusions that were going on, you know?

I mean, how would he also believe the Shawn Bolz word? And I know I’ve had people write me and say maybe he colluded with Shawn, and I’m like, “Shawn is not colluding with some random guy and saying, ‘Hi, I’m a con, let me help you con this girl.’” Um, so I’m sure my ex also fully thought that that was from God and thought that we are, like, living this out, you know? And he still thinks that he’s now trying to be a little Christian influencer on TikTok, so that’s been fun.

That’s the eerie space that both you and I operate in now of, like, this isn’t just, like, trauma dumping that we’re dealing with here. Like, we’re dealing with systemic corrosive issues that you and I both were able to see very close—the disastrous effects of that in our lives. And, like, our respective testimonies can show some of, like, that—the consequences of um, the rot at the root of this community.

But this is what’s so—it just, like, these—we—I remember hearing so much about cancel culture growing up, and, like, none of these people are cancelled. Like, that’s the-like Rick Joyner is talking about-

I wish they were cancelled- these specific ones at least, you know? I’m like, come on, guys, that—like,

– It would be great.

– Where is it?

But, like, Sean Feucht is still, like, going strong. Shawn, uh, Bolz, is still going strong. Bob Hartley is—

He might have been—

He might be the only one who actually, like—and that was—

But I would argue a lot of that has to do with your tenacity with trying to protect people. Because he wouldn’t have been—he would not have been canceled.

He definitely wouldn’t have, and honestly, if he was, like, mentally a little healthier, like, he destroyed his own life. Like, he went super self-destructive, so, like, he had to work really hard to get canceled, and it required one of his own family members, um, and, like, the brave women who spoke up about it. Like, I do not want to diminish their influence too. Like, like, incredibly brave women to, like, speak up and deal with what they had experienced. But, yeah, like, these people, they will—they still just keep going. Like, it’s not like they’re going to prison, you know? Like, they should—perhaps.

They should. I’m like, these are actual crimes. Like, where—but it’s all just—I don’t know, forgiveness, it’s fine. But there’s no consequences the majority of the time.

If anything, they are friends with people who are in literally the presidential cabinet now. Like, it just

They are, yeah.

Which is why it also—I can feel like I’m kind of going crazy sometimes, being like, “This should be a bigger deal.” Like, it’s just like a—a franchise of fraudulent churches.

It is.

– And cult churches, and it’s very much affecting our actual, literal politics that are going, like, the literal shape of our nation. And I think—it’s hard for secular communities to, or even, like, mainline Christian communities, to have compassion for some of the people who are in the community because it’s like they see a lot of people who are deceived by people like my dad as very naive. And like, there is some truth to that, but like I, you know, and I know that, like, when a community really embraces individuals, it’s—it’s less about naivety, and it’s more about, like, character. Like, I want to be someone who has faith. I want to be someone who trusts. I want to be someone who believes the best. I want to be someone who is willing to hear when God calls. I want to be someone who is willing to sacrifice my own opinions and beliefs and, like, to be a part of the greater good. Like, a lot of really good people get caught up because they’re trying to be good people. And I think it’s—

And they leave, though. What I’ve noticed is it’s like the people who enter these spaces with such good intentions, and they really want to know the truth, and they want to be helpful, and they believe in justice, and they think that this is the way, they end up making their way out. That’s what I’ve noticed. Like, all of the people that I went to Bethel with, who really did give me good vibes and I felt really good about their character, they have also found their way out of this system with time.

Yeah, yeah, and it does, like, and I think of the generation before me, I think of a lot less cases of that. Our generation, I’m really encouraged by, like, yes, I know a lot of people, or even people who have one foot in, one foot out, and have sort of recognized the really toxic way of a lot of the—the system there. Maybe they’re not ready to, like, make some of the claims like we’ve been making about the corrosive nature of the leadership just from a fundamental perspective, but they are—there’s a lot of people who are like, “No, yeah, that fraud isn’t good, and it’s definitely happening.”

So I’m hoping—I would—I would love to see some change, and to see these, like—I would love to see celebrity prophets be a thing of the past. Like, it would be so great if, like, my—my nieces’ children, like, had no idea about their grandmothers and, like, you know, like, my—the world that I grew up in. Or like, “Oh, wow, that—I would love for—wow, that’s a wild west that you were in.” And I would love for that to be the case, and I think it needs to be the case. But I’m not—I’m not—I’m optimistic that there’s a lot of exposure going on, but it’s a—it’s a super critical time right now to be like, how are people going to respond to this?

Yeah. Do you want to give people an update on your life? Are you no contact with your dad, and just what are your plans for the future to just continue to raise awareness about this type of stuff?

Yeah, so I, you know, um, I’m a teacher now. Um, I just got—I’ve been a tutor and just got hired for a teaching position, and I’m like so excited for that. That’s, um, that’s the world that I’m going to be living in. This is like a very odd hobby. Um, that little, little side tangent over here, where, um, you know, I definitely want to work on writing and, and, um continue sort of talking about my experiences. I often am on podcasts with John Collins, the William Branham Research Institute podcast. We talk about a lot of this stuff on there, and so that’s nice, but, um, but yeah, as far as like with my dad, um, yeah, I set boundaries with him where I was like, until you go to rehab, until you do these particular things, I’m not even going to have conversations with you because like, I can’t. And, um, and so I know I get information about a lot of his life because, like, when he goes to the hospital, it’s still like me and my sister who are the people who need to make decisions for him and stuff. Um, but, um, yeah, yeah, I feel like that chapter of my life—or, or whole, you know, book one of my life—is closed now, of being like, good.

Um, that is, unfortunately, I do—I don’t think that there’s going to be a whole lot of change. I don’t—I don’t expect to see my dad suddenly popping up and doing ministry circuits again. Um, but I don’t expect him to suddenly go to rehab and, and start apologizing for the things that he has done or taking responsibility for it. But, um, but yeah, that’s—and I think that the more I’m doing, like, research, and I love talking with people like you and, um, about, you know, how to get out of this world and how to heal from it. So, I love, I love this whole podcast idea of the Healed-ish, of, you know, picking up the pieces. I was going to do a something like, uh, I wanted to do a podcast called “I’m Leaving with Something.” That was—I remember you telling me, and I loved that.

But, because—Okay, can you explain, like, the idea? It was, um, like, you have all of this trauma, but I’m leaving with something, you know? Yeah, yeah. It’s the—it’s the, um, what is really hard when you get out of a world that is as extreme and intense as an apocalyptic community like IHOP or a heaven-meets-earth, you know, magical world like Bethel—Harry Potter, yeah. You—you can’t really—I said that there are people who have one foot in, one foot out. It’s really hard to do, um, because like, it just—you’re either all in or you’re all out, you know? Like, they either are hearing from God or they’re frauds. There’s not, like, a whole lot of in-between, and, um, so what I’ve—and I’ve talked to my sisters about this, um, a lot, is like, it was really heartbreaking to look back at my life and be like, all of my teenage years, all of my 20s are just gone. Like, they just—they never talk with people about them. I never—I talk with my therapist a lot, and my therapist is like, has no idea how to handle a lot of it because it’s just like—it’s so bizarro world. And like, if I’m talking with someone who is secular, you know, not Christian, or, or Muslim, or something, you know, and I’m trying to explain the world that I grew up in, it just—I don’t—I—or, in the past, I haven’t because I was like, it’s just too bizarre.

And I think over the last couple of years, I like chose to turn back and be like, I am going to try to glean something from it. I’m going to try to tell my story. I’m going to try to, like, think about the world that I grew up in. I mean, my name is Jedidiah, like, I—like, when I meet people, you know, kind of like Jubilee, there’s like—it’s, you know, there’s spiritual—oh, I know what kind of parents exactly. And so, like, I feel—and my dad, like, I was named Jedidiah because my dad had a dream about me, and like, so my dad’s prophetic nature has been, like, woven into the very fabric of my identity. And so, instead of just being like, that was the wild cult world that I lived in growing up, and I—that’s just, like, a severed separate piece of my past, I like this idea of being like, “No, I’m going to leave with something.” And I’m leaving it, but I am not going to, like, let that world steal my childhood and steal my, um, experiences and my story. And some of that has to do with, like, I could never tell my story until I, like, openly told the story about my dad. Like, until I talked about my dad being a fraud, I could never publicly talk about the life that I had lived because that was such a defining aspect of my life. And like, I traveled and ministered with him, and so this is sort of me repossessing and recapturing sort of my own story. And, um, but creating a podcast is really hard, so instead, I’ll just jump on lovely people’s—I will take all podcast invitations. I’ll take—yeah, yeah.

Well, I don’t—I don’t take all of them. I will send—yeah, same, I’m like, I don’t either, but I’m busy. I’m going to be on, because it’s just like, it’s really healing to talk to people who’ve been through it, ‘cause, like you were saying, it’s such a specific world. I mean, when I met my now husband, and I was telling him about it, I was like, “Wait, okay, I think I was in a cult.” And I didn’t realize it until I was talking to someone who was so mainstream, Catholic, yeah, you know, or mainstream Christian, and you’re like, “Actually, wait, I don’t think that that was normal,” or that was just, um, it’s not easily explainable. Yeah, trying to tell them about fire tunnels and the conga lines, you know, it’s like, uh, really crazy.

So, um, yeah, I just—I’m so glad that you came on, because I’ve just been wanting to have you share your story in, like, a longer format as well. So, thank you so much, and you’re just amazing. I’m like, write a book, I’ll read it in like 5 seconds. I know I’ve heard it before, but I—I get something new every time we talk, so—Oh, yeah, I’m sure, and, uh, clearly by the time that we spent on this podcast, uh, we quite—we could keep going for quite a while. Um, oh right, I know. I’m like, this is us going as fast as we can through the topic. No, but it’s my pleasure, and, uh, I so appreciate what you’re doing, and, and your voice that you’ve, um, been, um, speaking out and, um, so it is my pleasure to be on here.

And that wraps up my full conversation with Jedidiah Hartley. I am so glad that he agreed to come on and share his story. I think it is such a powerful one to hear, just from somebody who truly has been in this their entire life and has seen so many of the behind-the-scenes of these circles. And it has just been very healing for me personally to connect with somebody who understands this world, because like we were saying, not everybody really knows what it is like to be in these charismatic circles, and it is its very own specific type of trauma.

So I’m just very thankful for the friends that I have made in my healing journey. So just know that if you are healing too, you are not alone. Thank you guys so much for listening, and I’ll see you next week for another episode of Healed-ish.

Email all comments and questions to c3churchwatch@hotmail.com

“Have I then become your enemy by telling you the truth?” Galatians 4:16

‹ Prophets, Scams, and Bethel: Son of a fraud exposing the NAR’s prophetic movement (Part 1).

The delusional ramblings and prophecies of Mike Bickle’s sister Lisa Bickle. ›

Categories: Bethel "Church", iHOP

Tags: Bethel, Bethel cult, Bill Johnson, Bob Hartley, Georgian Banov, Heidi Baker, Jason Vallotton, Jim Bakker, Jubilee Dawn, Kris Vallotton, Lance Wallnau, Mike Bickle, Rick Joyner, Sean Feucht, Shawn Bolz, Winnie Banov

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Prophets, Scams, and Bethel: Son of a fraud exposing the NAR’s prophetic movement (Part 2).

“If you need to sow your wild oats, go to Thailand.” – Bill Johnson

Kris Vallotton and Bethel leadership used “really cheap gaslighting tactics”

“The whole thing has been predicated on the prophetic grift… Bill Johnson’s not alone in this.

When they were confronted about issues like this, they did not care…”

“Don’t let my dad prey on people in your community…”

VIDEO AND TRANSCRIPT

HEALED-ISH EPISODE 11 TRANSCRIPT.

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Prophets, Scams, and Bethel: Son of a fraud exposing the NAR’s prophetic movement (Part 2).

“If you need to sow your wild oats, go to Thailand.” – Bill Johnson

Kris Vallotton and Bethel leadership used “really cheap gaslighting tactics”

“The whole thing has been predicated on the prophetic grift… Bill Johnson’s not alone in this.

When they were confronted about issues like this, they did not care…”

“Don’t let my dad prey on people in your community…”

VIDEO AND TRANSCRIPT

HEALED-ISH EPISODE 11 TRANSCRIPT.

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