Well, hi there. This is leadership and other stuff, Brian Houston. Welcome to the podcast. I hope you subscribe and do

all that other stuff that uh podcasters tell you to do. But in the meantime,

I’ve been talking about church boards and the specific question, who is in

charge? If you’re a church pioneer, planted recently,

uh you’re the founder of a church. I think those are very important questions

to ask. And that’s who I’m talking to. I’m talking about church planters, church pioneers, church founders,

long-term longtime senior lead pastors,

uh not so much people who maybe have been appointed by a board in the last two or three years. I’m really talking

to people who are planting and I want to urge you to understand the importance of

church governance. So that’s the question. Who is in charge? You see, a

church is not just an organization. Obviously, it’s not a business. It’s not

an institution. Uh it’s not a corporation. No, it’s a living organism.

It’s not just a ministry. It’s not uh an NGO. It’s not just a not forprofit. No,

it is the church of the Lord Jesus Christ. It’s alive. If I said it’s an

organism. Jesus, the Bible teaches us, loves his church and gave his life for

it. And so with that in mind, we shouldn’t be treating churches, church

leadership, church governance as though it is a corporation or as though it is

uh just a ministry, a charity that you know like Red Cross or let’s say World

Vision. Uh it’s not. It’s not. And the Bible’s clear that the church is built

on the apostles and prophets with Jesus Christ himself being the chief

cornerstone. Uhhuh. Jesus being the chief cornerstone. He builds his church. He

told Peter, “I will build my church.” He builds his church. How does he build it? Your name is Peter. And upon this rock,

I will build my church. Jesus, of course, the rock, the big rock. Peter,

uh, small pebble, Petra, small pedal, pet pebble, excuse me. And so that’s the

difference right there. It’s not built on corporate governance alone. No, it’s

built according to the New Testament. Critical. My firm advice to every church

planter uh or anyone reassessing the governance of your church um shape the

governance with the long-term future in mind. You can’t just be building on the

people who are there now. uh maybe people you love, people you trust because the paperwork if you like the

constitution whatever bylaws they are going to long outlast the people that

you’re working with right now in every quite likelihood. So I can’t

overestimate it. Let me say it again. The importance of getting the governance of your church right. Paul in Galatians

chapter 1 and I’m just uh repeating at this point and revising what I spoke

about in part one. Galatians 1 1 and2 the letter this letter is from Paul an

apostle. I was not appointed by any group of people or any human authority

but by Jesus Christ himself and by God the father who raised Jesus from the

dead. Listen to it again. I was not appointed by any group of people or any

human authority. So, it’s not just a greeting to the Galatians uh in the

beginning of the book of Galatians. No, it’s uh Paul is definitely making a

point and I think we need to consider the point that he’s making because Paul

was going to go on. He would call the Galatians foolishness.

he was challenging them over going back to the law and the very things that Jesus had redeemed them from. And so I

did not build essentially Paul saying uh

according to any group of people or any human authority. Now I’m not even suggesting that pastors should not be

accountable. That’s what I’ll go on and address where and how uh lead pastors,

senior pastors, head pastors should be accountable. But often times these

people who are in control, they weren’t even there. They weren’t there when you

made those early sacrifices, when literally you were the one who took the

risk, stepped out in faith. They weren’t even there. Uh so it’s amazing how

things can creep and over the last three or four years I’ve had so many heartbreaking stories from all over the

world uh of pastors relaying to me their poor treatment by church boards really

really sad situations oftent time in smaller churches or in large churches

it is a thing there’s many great boards of course serving the Lord and serving

the vision of their pastors and thank God for them. And so I’m not really addressing that

because there are many, many, many great church boards. What I’m addressing is

boards that I think have usurped authority and who potentially are out of

control. And so the big question I mentioned, who keeps

the pastor accountable? I’ll address it. But another question,

who keeps the board accountable? Who are they answerable to? They’re not answerable to the pastor if they can

fire the pastor. They’re not they’re not accountable to the

congregation if the congregation has no say over who they are and can’t elect

them, let alone put them down. So church governance, it’s a big big question and

church boards need to be held to account.

Listen to me. We can make the mistake and I’ll just

repeat this from last time then I’ll get on to new things. But make the mistake

of believing that a church’s board’s motivation is always pure, but it’s not

always pure. And some of the things I mentioned that can creep into a board’s motivation, one is self-preservation.

It’s a big one because oftent times a board themselves will come under attack,

maybe even to the point where they should step down. But human nature, everyone looks after themselves. And so

they’ll throw someone else under the bus out of self-preservation. And so number two, offenses, petty

offenses that can creep in over years, over years. And once someone’s offended,

the spirit changes. In fact, Paul says, uh, you know, in another scripture, he

talks about those who govern through self-interest. And that’s what happens

when someone gets offended. It’s all about my feelings and I’m hurt. And you know, we all need time to heal. We all

doesn’t mean the church. It means them, the board members. And so, personal

ambition. If someone’s title is about to change, if something that was temporary is about to become permanent, straight

away, conflict of interest right there, personal ambition. Uh, and you’ll see it

when people inherit a title or a position by you being out of the way.

And then a big one to me is control. Control of the assets, control of the

ministry. Uh, it’s amazing how people assume control.

And that’s when a board this is the metaphor if you like or the picture I used that if that board palm upwards

fingers upwards this is the leadership this is the vision and they are a boardgovern church or you are a

boardgovern church then they are all about serving your vision and that’s the

pressure onwards and upwards they’re all about seeing you thrive in what God called you to do as the lead pastor but

what happens is as soon as that happens it switches. It goes from a

boardgoverned church to a board controlled church. And that’s what it

can become. It can become an issue of control. And so

self-righteousness, I’m just talking about motivations that can creep in, self-interest that can

connect themselves to a board. And uh self-righteousness is very real and it

brings such hypocrisy. People judging others with a different standard than

they would apply to themselves. And so here’s a sixth one. Uh

complete lack of honor and familiarity in terms of the lead pastor. So what

they will do, they will diminish. And so terminology terminology the moment you

the founder of the church the long-term pastor of the church are considered an

employee of the board. They could call you a founding pastor. They could call you a lead pastor. They could call you

all sorts of things that take a stance of honor. The moment they call you an

employee, well that is control right there. Uh, so

staff members, someone when the board says about their leader, he’s a staff

member, she’s a staff member. I would say put the alarm on talking to church

leaders, church founders. And so, of course, people will say,

“It’s not your church.” Well, let me be controversial. It is your church. The

church is founded on the apostles and the prophets. It’s not your church because you own it. [snorts]

Yeah. I mean, I’d be a wealthy man if I had have owned Hillog as though it was a

business. Of course, it never was a business. It was never intended to be a business. So, no, it’s not yours in

terms of owning it, but it’s yours because you are God’s appointed person.

Yes. Matthew 16:18. I’ll repeat it again. Your name is Peter. Not

find an apostle. No. Your name is Peter and upon this rock I will build my

church, specifically Peter. Uh Acts 13:2 is another one I quote where the

scripture says, “Separate unto me Paul and Barnabas for the work to which I’ve called them. Not find it at me a couple

of apostles.” No, Paul and Barnabas. It’s yours because you are God’s

appointed leader. And people will always use things to

manipulate like it’s not your church. Jesus builds a church as though we

don’t. And that is gaslighting. It is just trying to diminish you because the

truth is Jesus has always built with people. That’s how he builds his church.

And so it is your church. God appointed you to

be the leader. And unless it’s God who disappoints you or obviously who

dismisses you, then in my opinion, my humble opinion, it is your church. And

don’t let anybody try to use scripture uh in a way that’s not complete. Yes,

Jesus builds his church. We all know Jesus builds his church. The question is how does he build it? And so yes, you

don’t own the church. So it’s not yours. It is yours because

God put you there. He put you there before often time any of these other people were there. God put you there.

What a sure signs that a church board has gone from this to this. Board

governed to board controlled. What are some of the telltale signs? Well, I’ll tell you one of the first ones is that a

board when they start curbing the powers of the senior pastor, the lead pastor,

when all of a sudden they through legislation or policy limit the the the

position of the lead pastor, it’s control. Absolute control. I think a

second one is when the board when they’ve gone to this board controlled

they you know tend to strut around they become very visible uh you know even up

on the platform making statements etc from the board and so it reminds me a

little and this may be a little harsh but when Jesus talking about the Pharisees said they love the prime

tables at the banquet they love the front seats in the synagogue and so

there’s almost the strutting that goes with position which again means the

board is out of control by trying to take control. And so a third one uh they

reduce you to an employee. That’s what I’ve talked about. You are not an employee. You are the employer. Yes,

that’s right. And so I don’t believe it’s the role of the of the board to be

if you like the guardians of the church. I think they are the guard guardians of

the lead pastor. That’s what I think and his and his uh vision.

When I say govern sorry guardians of the lead pastor, I’m not talking about

control. What I’m saying is that they are guardians of the vision of the

leadership ministry in the church. Yes, I do believe pastors should be

accountable. I’m getting to that. But they rejoice you to an employee. And

then here’s a fourth one. All of a sudden, they start reinventing the past history. something that was miraculous,

maybe something that was so unified and powerful and so much movement and

blessing was attached to it. And you can tell the board’s taking control where

they try to reimagine history and somehow try to turn what is beautiful

and a phenomenal move of God into uh a negative story or when they try to

reinvent your leadership style. And so have a good think about that because

again it’s a telltale sign that by dismissing the past they’re justifying the actions now. And so number five uh

hiding behind the regulatory bodies. Every country has its own. In England there’s a charities commission for

example. And so hiding behind that where often that’s their reasoning for the way

that they are behaving but there could be another way. it just suits them to

use that regulatory body as the excuse or the reason for the the actions that

they’re taking. Um here’s the sixth one talking about when

you know that a board has taken control. It’s gone from board governed church to

board controlled church and that is this the founding pastor is is basically

excluded from deciding their successor. I think when the kingdom’s working, when

the Bible’s working well, the generations get stronger and absolutely it is the the founding pastor or the

lead pastor who should decide their successor and then that potentially be ratified by

a board. Um once you’re excluded, you know for a for a fact this is a

boardcontrolled church now. You don’t get a say. you don’t get a say because we’re in charge. And so, you know,

apostles and prophets, it’s Ephesians 2 verse 2021. I’ll read it again. Having

been built on the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief cornerstone in

whom the whole building being fitted together grows into a holy temple of the

Lord. You can’t just dismiss that. It’s not accountants, lawyers, bankers,

doctors, uh you know, tradesmen. It’s not these are not people who should be controlling churches. The church is a

standalone organism. It’s alive. It’s birthed in New Testament and the teachings of Jesus

himself and then of course apostle Paul and the apostles. And so

Jesus has always used people for the building, specific people like I said.

Uh and so who’s in control? Because people who don’t lead out of

ministry gifting, apostles, prophets, evangelists, pastors, teachers, people who don’t lead out of that,

they can only lead according to what they know. And what do they know? Generally corporate. generally

the world’s way and so by doing that they can only lead on what they know. So

it becomes just lawyers, more lawyers, policy, more legal advice, more policy,

uh monetizing the assets. So it’s a dangerous thing you know in church life.

There’s a lot of great people in the church and they see their role as basically having a kingdom spirited

spirit and a kingdom spirited build uh business. And so what does that mean?

They say they are all about you know resourcing the church and

seeing the vision of the of the leadership team fulfilled and that’s a

powerful thing. But there sometimes people in the business side of the church on staff and they also see that

their role is to make money for the church. Now in itself that’s not a bad

thing. But what becomes bad is when it literally becomes about money. You will

sacrifice people. You’ll sacrifice relationships by putting money first and not people

first. Don’t try and tell me it doesn’t happen because it does happen. It absolutely does happen. So yes, the

church can become about money, not for individuals profits, but because the

obsession with making money for the church is uh it’s a dangerous thing. And

so let’s not fall for that trap. Uh

I think it’s really really important who we build with and who we build you know

who we build on and uh

let me just put it this way. Who gets a vote when it comes to your

position? So in other words, you’re the lead pastor. You have been for a long time. uh you planted that church, you

made all those early sacrifices. And so who should get to vote if it ever

came to that on your position? Uh and this is my council again for young

leaders looking way out into the future. Get it right. Get it right. uh

the chair the senior sorry the yeah the lead pastor the senior pastor absolutely

should be the person who chairs the board it’s not world vision

it’s it’s not a charity it’s the church

and the way the kingdom works God thinks generationally and I think when it’s ministry giftings

who are looking into the future. They think generationally, not necessarily from their own family, though often

times that’s the way it is. And I always thank God for it because you see that generational blessing passed down. I’m a

huge believer in heritage. And so, who should who should chair the board?

You should. And when it comes to who should be on that board, number one,

looking forward, I would say no staff members. no staff members at all on the

board because it becomes Jacqueline Hyde. Yeah. One moment they work for you, you’re their boss, the next minute

they’re a director. And so it’s a it’s a it’s an antithesis. It’s a it’s a uh

yeah, a parallel that just shouldn’t be there. no staff members because if it’s

about your position, every staff member who makes a decision

about their own boss has a conflict of interest. And it also should not be anyone who’s

married to a staff member who’s on a board. I mean, let me give you a scenario. Imagine 10 people go into a

room, 10 people on team, nine of them come out having heard one thing in the

conversation and the discussions, but another person comes out as though they were in a different room with a

different medium because they have a totally different narrative than the majority in terms of what was said or

what happened in that meeting. Now imagine if that’s the person who was married to a board member. And so what

happens? Pillow talk. They go home with their version of the world, their version of events night after night,

week after week, month after month. And so anyone married to someone on staff

has a conflict of interest. I would even say that business people in the church

can’t be the majority of the people who make decisions about your position. Uh

why? Because if you’ve been there a long long time, they’ve only ever known you as their as their pastor, their lead

pastor, their senior pastor. That’s the relationship they have with you. So in a sense, they are conflicted as well. I

think business people in the church, you know, good people in the church can

contribute to a decision, but they shouldn’t be the majority who decide. So

what do I think? What I think is that you should have an outside group, an

external body of apostles and prophets, seasoned, mature ministries, and

unapologetically they love you and they want what’s best for you, but they also want the best for

the church. They’re going to look after the congregation, uh, if you like, the members. And so,

their heart is for you. Um and so they’re going to they’re going to come

from a totally different perspective. Number one, it’s not subjective. Everyone inside it they’re subjective.

They can’t be objective. People who stand alongside

uh they are great great godly people. They can be much more objective when it

comes to decisions that have the imp have the potential for so much fallout.

uh you know so much heartbreak external people and not just anyone

people strongly ministry gifted with a proven track record have built something

significant themselves that’s who I think you should write into your

paperwork are the people who make decisions when it comes to your leadership [snorts]

let’s pray that that never needs to happen But um

that outside group of five-fold ministry gifted people. They’re seasoned. They’re

mature. They’re unconlicted. They’re objective. And you should choose those people

because it is your church. It’s not your church. It’s Jesus church. Yes, it is Jesus church and he loves his church and

he chose you. You’re his appointed person. And so then it’s not about

what’s best for the board. It’s not actually about the board’s interests at all because the board they’re a serving

body, not a controlling body. They are serving through bringing governance, due

diligence, uh making sure the church is abiding by all its responsibilities in

terms of accountability, etc. to the government bodies, whoever those bodies

are. And so other advice I would give you relate to the management and the

business side of the church, the administration because watch their authority, it can

creep. You know if this is the whole staff and

100% of the responsibility and the authority over the team the staff the

vision uh people generally uh if this is 100%

here’s what I would say don’t let any individual especially from the

management side of your church oversee more than about 20% just a

hypothetical number 20% % of the total governance and responsibility of the

church because that creeps and over years over time slowly it can become 20

30% then 40% and if it ever gets to 50% or over 50% you’re no longer in charge.

You not are not. When you start seeing managers acting like they’re your boss

then you know things are out of control and it can happen. Believe me, it can

happen. So, let me say it again. Don’t let the management of your church

oversee more than 20% of the people and the vision who are on the team and who are on the staff. These people are there

to serve the vision, your vision, the vision of the head pastor and ultimately

the ministry team. That’s what they exist for. That’s what the administrative side of your church

exists for. To serve your vision, not to take control

when it comes to authority and even when it comes to the level of

responsibilities. Be careful of that creep. It can creep.

It can creep. Suddenly, you wake up one day and you’re not as in charge as you thought you were. You are not an

employee. You are the employer. They work for you. You don’t work for them.

And so, make sure you read the constitution.

Make sure you’re involved in the forming of the constitution. When you’re starting out, I’m talking about make

sure you’re aware of any um code of conduct for team and staff.

Make sure that you’re over any bylaws or anything else that may affect the security of your position because I’ll

tell you the devil is in the detail. You are disposable.

You may not feel like it and we’re all great friends and got great unity.

Praise God. That’s what we want to protect. That’s what we want to look after. So that’s why some of the things

I’m saying are important. What about financial controllers?

Uh you corporations often they have a financial controller. That word control

it tells you everything. Tells you everything. Don’t ever let anyone see

themsself as a controller in any way. In-house lawyers, man, I’ve got I’ve got

I’ve got thoughts about in-house lawyers. Personally, no matter how big

things get, I don’t think you need one. I don’t think it’s helpful. And I think

if you do want to have an in-house lawyer sometime in the future, um, do a

personality test because you get someone with small man syndrome in that position

who has to feel like they have to justify their existence that they are the lawyer. uh it can get totally out of

control and suddenly everything comes down to law, legal, legislation

and um they’ll throw their authority, they’ll throw their power around and they are toxic. Absolutely toxic to the

team and to the staff. So I say don’t have an in-house lawyer, but if you do,

pick the right personality. Absolutely. And don’t have them part of every

conversation. Don’t give them a seat at the table in every conversation. Should

they be in every board meeting and involved in every conversation? Absolutely not. Don’t let that happen.

They’re the tail, not the head. Get the wrong personality in there and it can

work against you. When it comes to the kingdom of God, honor is huge.

soon as people take control, it’s honor that’s abused. And uh it’s sad. It’s

really sad because good godly people who have served God faithfully so easily are

pushed aside, cast aside when people

decide they’re in charge. They’re in control. You’re an employee. You are not

their employee. Don’t let them think that way. They serve your vision. You

don’t serve theirs. And so

we got to curb the pals of

well listen to it. Signs a church has gone from board government to board

control. uh first thing they want to curb the

powers of the lead pastor and they’ll put out policy to that end. Second, um

they become very re very visible in their role. U third they see and treat

you like you are an employee. Uh

fourth, I mentioned they recreate history and reinvent your leadership

style. Fifth, they’ll hide behind the regulatory bodies to justify their

actions. And uh sixth,

they will start taking actions toward you that ultimately can lead in your

dismissal. It shouldn’t happen. external accountability.

People who love the ministry, who love you, who love the church and then if

necessary and a board needs to, they can bring perhaps complaints to that group

of apostles, prophets, etc. They can bring complaints there. But it should be limited only for specific reasons. One,

it’d be morality. I mean, if a pastor’s having a long-term affair or uh, you

know, is committing adultery, well, that there needs to be a group who can deal

with that. Uh, second, if there’s abuse of money, misappropriation of funds,

I’ve seen that happen. I’ve seen even where people had black books and gray books. Uh I think it was black and gray

or black and white, but the gray books uh were the official were the official

uh you know documents and talking about money and uh the black group were the

unofficial. So they had two sets of books. So yeah, those things are an

issue. Uh a third one is if you’re teaching false doctrine and you won’t submit to any authority keep on doing

that. Uh or proven and it has to be proven. Uh mistreatment of people I

think is something we obviously have to guard against you know it’s obvious uh

that you’re a bully. And by the way just because someone gets called a bully

doesn’t mean they’re a bully these days. Even if you challenge someone, someone will start calling you a bully. And so

it’s proven bullying. That’s different. It gaslights people. It’s narcissistic.

That but that’s it. That’s it. They should be the if you like the guidelines

where perhaps an external board could take uh a position that ultimately leads to

the departure of a senior pastor. Uh no two situations are ever the same. We got

to get this right. You’ve got to get it right. I’ve given you my thoughts. Uh some of my thoughts might even be

controversial. That’s all right. But think about it. Think about it. I’m not

giving this to people uh to please them. I really want to talk

to people who have got long-term vision who are the sacrifice. You know, I got a

friend, well, friends who were in New Zealand, had a phenomenal church. Some of you will know straight away who I’m

talking about. Uh probably the biggest or certainly one of the two biggest churches in New Zealand.

and a fantastic church and they started it. They carved it out from nothing. They took all those early sacrifices.

They took all the risks and obviously the people who later on would come onto

the scene, they they weren’t there. Well, what happened? Someone who was

very close uh to the leadership, someone who was really in the leadership team

told me about that church that is now controlled by a few woke lawyers. I

can’t comment because I know no one on the board. I know uh I know nothing about the inner workings of the church.

But what I do know is that my friends were put in a position where they were

forced ultimately to resign and to step away. But you know what’s sad? What’s

sad? They were the people who put all those years, and I’m talking decades

into leading and building that church, seeing God do something incredible,

raising up people, seeing people saved, seeing people filled with the Holy Spirit, seeing campuses all over the

country in New Zealand, and to see them now go completely dishonored.

To me, that’s a sad thing. And if and it’s an if

it’s because of small-spirited, insecure, uh

yeah, maybe offended people who simply cannot honor the people who were the

foundation under Jesus Christ of that church. To me, that’s just sad. People

have to get over their insecurities. They have to know the power of the high ground and honor should always be there.

Always for the people who did all the hard work, took all the

sacrifices, if you like, took upon themselves the pain of pioneering, built something

significant. If there’s no honor, ultimately there will always be a cap on

just how far that church and ministry can go. There’s my thoughts. God bless you. Uh join me next time. Leadership

and other stuff. And I pray people will take some of the counsel that I’ve given

and really apply it. God bless.