This footage of Heidi Baker (of Iris Global) was filmed at Bethel Church of Redding, California. It is important to remember that many churches around the world are influenced by these ministries (including Hillsong and C3).
After watching the contents of the below video, the obvious question is this: Why would parents want their kids involved or associated with these people?
Warning: This footage may disturb some viewers!
Categories: Bethel "Church", Iris Global
kenneth crackhead?? kenneth crackhead is doing his best to unite all protestants with pope francis. that’s an unholy unity. he’s taking up where tony palmer left off since tony’s motorcycle crash death. everybody knows this. well, everyone except for you ds (once again, no surprise). do you live with your head under a rock?
chris rosebrough summarizes of what he thinks of kenneth crackhead’s tongues here….. enjoy…..
‘Some of us have degrees and doctorates.’
‘NAR does not result in an answer in a web search. It gives Nucleic Acid Research.’
those degrees and doctorates aren’t doing ‘some of us’ any good are they??
how to use complicated google for dummies:
1. go to google
2. type: HEIDI BAKER NAR
Copeland is/was always a part of the Charismatic movement. Although he was attached to one church for a time (not as the ‘pastor’ but just as a member,) he eventually formed his own ‘church’ so that he didn’t have to submit his plans to anyone else. That is never a good foundation for starting a church.
Eagle Mountain International Church (EMIC) was created by the Copelands as a complementary organisation, to go along with their KCM ministry, which does TV shows, and prints books, manufactures CD’s and DVD’s, as well as arranging conferences etc.
If some of you readers out there think that either KCM or EMIC are ‘OK’, then a read of this interesting little blog about life inside of KCM may enlighten you:
Many of you would know about Rich Vermillion’s blog – he was a long time partner in the KCM ministry, but left. He then began to expose the Copelands, stating that due to family and marriage sins/concerns, they were not fit and proper people to be in ministry, unless there was some serious and permanent repentance by the whole family:
Kenneth Copeland… What a man of God:
A scam artist. It’s a disgrace for someone like that to masquerade as a ‘Christian.’
Matt Slick’s (Carm’s) list of the false (unbiblical) teachings of this (and similar) scam artists.
“Praying in the Spirit” (another way of saying praying in your prayer language or tongues) is available to every believer (but not a mark of salvation). This is different than one person praying in tongues with interpretation in public.
From well-known and highly respected charismatic theologian Wayne Grudem:
Question: “What is praying in tongues? Is praying in tongues a prayer language between a believer and God?”
Answer: As a background, please read our article on the gift of speaking in tongues. There are four primary Scripture passages that are cited as evidence for praying in tongues: Romans 8:26; 1 Corinthians 14:4-17; Ephesians 6:18; and Jude verse 20. Ephesians 6:18 and Jude 20 mention “praying in the Spirit.” However, tongues as a prayer language is not a likely interpretation of “praying in the Spirit.”
Romans 8:26 teaches us, “In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.” Two key points make it highly unlikely that Romans 8:26 is referring to tongues as a prayer language. First, Romans 8:26 states that it is the Spirit who “groans,” not believers. Second, Romans 8:26 states that the “groans” of the Spirit “cannot be expressed.” The very essence of speaking in tongues is uttering words.
That leaves us with 1 Corinthians 14:4-17 and verse 14 especially: “For if I pray in a tongue, my spirit prays, but my mind is unfruitful.” First Corinthians 14:14 distinctly mentions “praying in tongues.” What does this mean? First, studying the context is immensely valuable. First Corinthians chapter 14 is primarily a comparison/contrast of the gift of speaking in tongues and the gift of prophecy. Verses 2-5 make it clear that Paul views prophecy as a gift superior to tongues. At the same time, Paul exclaims the value of tongues and declares that he is glad that he speaks in tongues more than anyone (verse 18).
Acts chapter 2 describes the first occurrence of the gift of tongues. On the day of Pentecost, the apostles spoke in tongues. Acts chapter 2 makes it clear that the apostles were speaking in a human language (Acts 2:6-8). The word translated “tongues” in both Acts chapter 2 and 1 Corinthians chapter 14 is glossa which means “language.” It is the word from which we get our modern English word “glossary.” Speaking in tongues was the ability to speak in a language the speaker does not know, in order to communicate the gospel to someone who does speak that language. In the multicultural area of Corinth, it seems that the gift of tongues was especially valuable and prominent. The Corinthian believers were able to better communicate the gospel and God’s Word as a result of the gift of tongues. However, Paul made it abundantly clear that even in this usage of tongues, it was to be interpreted or “translated” (1 Corinthians 14:13, 27). A Corinthian believer would speak in tongues, proclaiming God’s truth to someone who spoke that language, and then that believer, or another believer in the church, was to interpret what was spoken so that the entire assembly could understand what was said.
What, then, is praying in tongues, and how is it different than speaking in tongues? First Corinthians 14:13-17 indicates that praying in tongues is also to be interpreted. As a result, it seems that praying in tongues was offering a prayer to God. This prayer would minister to someone who spoke that language, but would also need to be interpreted so that the entire body could be edified.
This interpretation does not agree with those who view praying in tongues as a prayer language. This alternate understanding can be summarized as follows: praying in tongues is a personal prayer language between a believer and God (1 Corinthians 13:1) that a believer uses to edify himself (1 Corinthians 14:4). This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) How could praying in tongues be a private prayer language if it is to be interpreted (1 Corinthians 14:13-17)? 2) How could praying in tongues be for self-edification when Scripture says that the spiritual gifts are for the edification of the church, not the self (1 Corinthians 12:7)? 3) How can praying in tongues be a private prayer language if the gift of tongues is a “sign to unbelievers” (1 Corinthians 14:22)? 4) The Bible makes it clear that not everyone possesses the gift of tongues (1 Corinthians 12:11, 28-30). How could tongues be a gift for self-edification if not every believer can possess it? Do we not all need to be edified?
Some understand praying in tongues to be a “secret code language” that prevents Satan and his demons from understanding our prayers and thereby gaining an advantage over us. This interpretation is unbiblical for the following reasons: 1) The New Testament consistently describes tongues as a human language, and Satan and his demons are well able to understand human languages. 2) The Bible records countless believers praying in their own language, out loud, with no concern of Satan intercepting the prayer. Even if Satan and/or his demons hear and understand the prayers we pray, they have absolutely no power to prevent God from answering the prayers according to His will. We know that God hears our prayers, and that fact makes it irrelevant whether Satan and his demons hear and understand our prayers.
What do we say, then, about the many Christians who have experienced praying in tongues and find it to be very personally edifying? First, we must base our faith and practice on Scripture, not experience. We must view our experiences in light of Scripture, not interpret Scripture in light of our experiences. Second, many of the cults and world religions also report occurrences of speaking in tongues/praying in tongues. Obviously the Holy Spirit is not gifting these unbelieving individuals. So, it seems that the demons are able to counterfeit the gift of speaking in tongues. This should cause us to compare even more carefully our experiences with Scripture. Third, studies have shown how speaking/praying in tongues can be a learned behavior. Through hearing and observing others speak in tongues, a person can learn the procedure, even subconsciously. This is the most likely explanation for the vast majority of instances of speaking/praying in tongues among Christians. Fourth, the feeling of “self-edification” is natural. The human body produces adrenaline and endorphins when it experiences something new, exciting, emotional, and/or disconnected from rational thought.
Praying in tongues is most definitely an issue on which Christians can respectfully and lovingly agree to disagree. Praying in tongues is not what determines salvation. Praying in tongues is not what separates a mature Christian from an immature Christian. Whether or not there is such a thing as praying in tongues as a personal prayer language is not a fundamental of the Christian faith. So, while we believe the biblical interpretation of praying in tongues leads away from the idea of a private prayer language for personal edification, we also recognize that many who practice such are our brothers and sisters in Christ and are worthy of our love and respect.
Recommended Resources: Are Miraculous Gifts for Today – Four Views edited by Wayne Grudem and Logos Bible Software.
“Obviously the Holy Spirit is not gifting these unbelieving individuals. So, it seems that the demons are able to counterfeit the gift of speaking in tongues.”
Why then would Satan want to ‘counterfeit’ true tongues, if they didn’t exist??? This seems to be the unanswered question amongst evangelical brethren who do not partake of the gifts of the Holy Spirit.
If I wanted to counterfeit $8.00 notes, I couldn’t – because $8.00 notes do not exist. I can only counterfeit things that DO exist.
What it boils down to, for many, is those who have never spoken in tongues, or operated any other gift, are world experts on the matter, but people who have been exercising the gifts for decades, all of a sudden know nothing about them, when these ‘experts’ show up.
Experience is something that people have, and cannot just be discounted because it’s ‘experience’. God’s word, the Bible, has a message contained within its covers, which has been made simple enough for the most ignorant and educated people to understand.
Why then must we complicate things like gifts of the Spirit, or cause ructions for those who practise them, with all of this confusion and unbelief. And who is Wayne Grudem? I’ve never heard his name mentioned until recently in relation to other matters on another blog? Why would Pentecostal and Charismatic people automatically accept him as an ‘expert’?
I spoke in tongues for years thinking it biblical, I no longer do but my prayer life has increased immensely since I now pray in my own tongue, English. I think as a charismatic non cessationist theologian, Wayne Grudem covered it well.
It will always be an issue of disagreement, and having had the “experience”, I see both sides.
Wayne A. Grudem, born in 1948 is an evangelical theologian, seminary professor, and author. He co-founded the Council on Biblical Manhood and Womanhood and served as the general editor of the ESV Study Bible.
His most notable books are “Systematic Theology: An Introduction to Biblical Doctrine, Recovering Biblical Manhood and Womanhood: A Response to Evangelical Feminism, ESV Study Bible”. You’ll probably find his Systematic Theology book in the libraries of most respected charismatic pastors.
Oh dear CW – have I set the (Pentecostal) cat amongst the (Evangelical) pidgeons again???
I know the purpose of your blogs is to expose error, cultism and other deceptions within the church, so I won’t pursue this topic here and now. This thread is really about the ‘faker Baker’…
I am reading an article by Mike Openheimer at the moment along similar lines (not knowing much about his own background) and may email you a link to it later on if it seems worth it. 🙂
The Grudem link on private prayer language was in response to those who follow Heidi Baker – somehow they never can give a reasonable biblical response to ANY question.
On a side note Apollo, if you ever feel like reading some excellent dialogue between two great friends, check this out: Why I am/why I’m not, charismatic etc
There’s about 16 parts, you need to go back in the archives. Well worth it, excellent discussion from both sides.
Thank you CW – I’ve downloaded the first blog and will certainly read it with interest. In these areas of doubt and controversy, the last thing you’d want to happen is for those who are discussing them to become close minded on the topic…
Wayne Grudem is misquoted above, the first part is Grudem but then he is taken out of context. Grudem shows from scripture that the gift of tongues is Biblical as does Gordon Fee.
Two witnesses are needed to prove Heidi Baker in the previous page’s link, is trying to have people think she is really reading from the Bible.
I don’t believe on this account then that such as Benny Hinn are fooling people into thinking Christ will physically appear on stage, nor that they deliberate actions that lead to people dying. There is a famous account of someone rising from the dead in Bonnke’s meeting. And accounts of healings. What may go wrong is, people think they are proving themselves faithful, by not taking medication and trusting God, in error.
It makes me so sad to see this post and the responses to it. Do not let fear rule your life. You cling to the Bible like it is the only authority, but look to the One to whom it points! The Word is living not because it was inspired by God, but because Jesus is the Word. Open your heart to Holy Spirit and let Him teach you. This kind of criticism and attack is certainly not from God. God is love, and if we are in Him and He in us, then we will love. Where is your love for Heidi Baker? You may not have had the revelation that she has had yet, but her spirit is pure. Your condemnation of her helps no one, but breeds a spirit of contempt. Do not be like the Pharisees and the hypocrites. Humble yourselves before the Lord, and let Him lift you up. Let Him grow you in truth and love.
“You may not have had the revelation that she has had yet, but her spirit is pure.”
That’s funny – the very people who condemn us for “judging” parrot the phrase, “You don’t know their heart.” But it’s fruitcakes like you that will defend fruitcakes, frauds and felons by claiming you are the “true” Christians who can discern the hearts and spirits of those you love.
You either think you are God or you can’t see the plank in your own eye.