In this article, you can listen to the discussion or read the transcript of Chris Rosebrough and Michael Brown talking about Jennifer LeClaire’s ‘sneaky squid spirit’ doctrine.
Pastor and Apologist of PirateChristian.com
TRANSCRIPT
Dr Michael Brown: “Let’s go to Grand Forks, North Dakota, Chris, welcome to The Line of Fire.”
Chris Rosebrough: “Thanks for having me.”
Dr Michael Brown: “You’re welcome.”
Chris Rosebrough: “I have a question about Jennifer Le Claire’s teaching.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Yes sir.”
Chris Rosebrough: “Twice in the last couple of months, once in Charisma Magazine and then last week on her podcast, she is warning people to be on the lookout for the ‘sneaky squid spirit’. And claims that she was stalked by it, and was actually trying to tell people in the body of Christ that they need to be, ‘weary of the sneaky squid spirit’, and that ‘it may be stalking them.’
My question is, since I can’t find a single Biblical text that teaches about the ‘sneaky squid spirit’, how is this qualitatively different than like what Roman Catholic doctrine does, when it creates doctrines, like indulgences or prayers to the Virgin Mary, and things like that?”
Dr Michael Brown: “Yeah, that’s a very fair question, Chris, thank you. And Jennifer was on with me in the half hour before this.
Number one, you’re talking about making a doctrine like praying to Mary, and indulgences of this is how you get forgiveness for people in Purgatory. So it’s one thing to make a doctrine out of something. It’s another thing to say, ‘Beware of something that’s happening spiritually’.
The second thing is, would this be different in content from the Bible talking about Leviathan, described as a multi headed serpent? Or Satan described as a dragon?
Now to be perfectly clear, Chris, obviously, you’ve never heard me talk about a ‘sneaky squid spirit’, or anything of the sort, obviously. And I can’t verify a syllable that Jennifer said about, but that’s obviously something to take up with her. But, is she describing this as how she saw something in the spirit? Is it any different than seeing a dragon with seven heads and ten horns? Not necessarily.
And if she’s saying, ‘I sense this’, what was she saying that is ‘sneaky squid spirit’ was doing, sir?
Chris Rosebrough: “Stalking people, stalking Christians and believers, and attacking their minds. It’s on the Charisma Magazine website.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Got it, okay. And by the way, for those who are not charismatic, or for those who are mildly charismatic, or for those who are anti Charismatic, they will obviously point at this as something very flaky or unreliable, or why they’re not charismatic. I fully understand why there would be skepticism attached to this.
But Chris, just to understand where you’re coming from, do you put aside what she said totally? Okay, do you believe…”
Chris Rosebrough: “Yes I do. And I will give you the reason why.”
Dr Michael Brown: “No, no, no, hang on, I didn’t ask, I didn’t ask my question. I just wanted to know if you believe there are demonic spirits that are at work today?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Absolutely, absolutely.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Okay, got it. Alright so you do believe that. Do you believe that there could ever be a time of unusual oppression, and where, you know, maybe you’re counselling people in a church as a Pastor, right? And you find, wow, ten different families are going through the same kind of attack, this is unusual, I think I’m going to preach about this and equip people better, and say, ‘hey it seems people are getting harassed by thoughts of suicide that have never struggled with it’, do you think something like that could happen?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Of course. Scripture is very clear we need to put on the armour of God, and you only put armour on if you’re in the middle of a battle.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Got it. Alright so, your issue here would be the identification of this and the way it’s being discussed?”
Chris Rosebrough: “It’s a little bit more than that, and this is the point that I think really needs to be fleshed out here. Over and again, I hear from the Charismatic movement and the leaders in it that these revelations that they claim that there are receiving from God, that their receiving from the Holy Spirit, these impressions they’re receiving on their hearts, are congruent with Scripture and do not add to it. But now we have a new teaching, and you are fully aware that the word ‘didasko’, doctrine, where we get the word doctrine, simply means teaching. To teach there there’s a ‘sneaky squid spirit’, and define its actions, and behaviors, and its methods, and things like that. This goes way beyond Scripture. And it is a doctrine. Whether or not it’s officially recognized as dogma, in a churches doctrinal statement is not the point.
When somebody stands up and writes an article and says, ‘God is showing me this’, we as Christians, are bound to believe when anyone is actually speaking from the Spirit of God. If God is speaking, we’re duty bound to actually listen and obey what He is saying. But over again…” [Brown speaks over the top of Rosebrough]
Dr Michael Brown: “So let me just, let me just respond to that part, okay? I’m all for testing the spirits. The New Testament tells us to. Right?
Test the spirits. The New Testament tells us to seek prophecy, it encourages that. There’s absolutely not a text in the New Testament that tells us that prophecy is going to stop before the eschaton. So I’m just believing the Word, the Word tells me to encourage prophecy, to seek that gift, and it tells me not to despise it, but to test everything in 1 Thessalonians 5. There’s not a hint that I get rid of the New Testament, that this is going to stop. 1 Corinthians 1, talks about the gifts until Jesus returns. In 1 Corinthians 13, where we see Him face to face, these things will not be needed then, we will know perfectly.
So, let’s say someone speaks prophetically. You’re really praying for direction, you’re praying about whether you should go to seminary, or right now take a secular job to feed your family. And I don’t know any of this, and I’m praying, and I say, ‘sir, I sense the Lord saying that right now you need to work a secular job, I don’t know if that’s relevant to you?’ And you say, ‘oh man, that’s what I was praying about.’ That’s a prophecy, a prophetic word, but it’s not doctrine. It’s not adding to the Bible, it has nothing to do with adding to the Bible, it’s just the gift of prophecy in operation.”
Chris Rosebrough: “You’re describing something different. Because like I said, ‘didasko is doctrine’. That’s what it is, it’s teaching. And on two occasions in the past two months, Jennifer Le Claire has taught teaching that a sneaky squid spirit has stalked her, has stalked a friend of hers, and could be potentially stalking other Christians. That is a doctrine. That is a teaching being released in the body of Christ…” [Brown speaks over the top of Rosebrough]
Dr Michael Brown: “But every church in America- but Chris every church in America teaches things that are not explicit in Scripture. If you had a church, and I was there for a year, I would be able to say, ‘here are 50 things that you teach’, you say, ‘no this is not Bible, but this is what we practice, or here’s an insight that we have, or here’s the way we’ve understood this from church history.’
So you’ve doing the same thing, based on your definition of ‘didasko’, you’re adding to the Bible, probably every time you preach or teach.”
Chris Rosebrough: “Um, I would challenge you to listen to my sermons, they’re posted online. Um, and I would like you to point out to me, the things where I have taught, as my opinion, you know actually what God would have us believe. And so… (Brown cuts off Rosebrough)
Dr Michael Brown: “But, but hang on. In terms of practice, do you have an order of service?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Of course.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Okay. Alright.”
Chris Rosebrough: “Every church has an ‘order of service’.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Alright. But Paul gives us an order in 1 Corinthians 14. That when you come together, this one should have a song, this one should have interpretation, this one should have a revelation, this one should have a tongue. He gives us the order of service in 1 Corinthians 14. If you don’t follow that, now you’ve made up your own order, that’s your own doctrine, you’ve added to the Bible.
Chris Rosebrough: “Only if the order of service (music plays over the top of Chris) in 1 Corinthians 14 is a prescriptive order of service. And you know that’s true, it’s prescriptive in that we are duty bound as Christians to follow that order.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Alright, tell you what, stay right there. If it’s descriptive, how come it doesn’t describe your service? We’ll come right back. We will continue this conversation.”
[Ad break]
Dr Michael Brown: “I’m having an interesting conversation with Chris, a Pastor from Grand Forks, North Dakota. By the way, Chris, God willing I’m scheduled to be in North Dakota, it could be Grand Forks later this year. But if so, if we could ever meet face to face, that would be great.”
Chris Rosebrough: “I would welcome that.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Yeah, yeah, I’m sure you would. And I would on my end as well. Hopefully it will work out, I’ll have details shortly. But I know I’m coming to North Dakota, I think its Grand Forks, but I will tell you. I’m scheduled to be there for several days, so almost surly, I would be able to get together face to face.
And for everyone listening, Jennifer’s ‘sneaky squid spirit’ word is something that Chris will have to take up with Jennifer. We’re discussing the larger question, which is a totally fair question, and one that I respect.
Chris do you have a website? You mentioned you have your messages online, do you have a website?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Yeah, I am the Pastor of Kongsvinger Lutheran Church, Oslo, Minnesota. It’s just across the Red River here in Grand Forks. And they can find it at kongsvingerchurch.org.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Got it. And is there another website you have with other information about these issues, or is that the place to go?”
Chris Rosebrough: “I don’t want to grandstand on your program.”
Dr Michael Brown: “No that’s okay.”
Chris Rosebrough: “I also host the ‘Fighting for the Faith’ radio program, which is available at fightingforthefaith.com. And I do cover Jennifer Le Claire on a regular basis as somebody who I have documented as given false prophecies, and has literally been teaching really bazaar doctrines, that have nothing whatsoever to do with Scripture. And go way, way beyond the Biblical text and introduce new doctrines into the body of Christ.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Alright. Got it. So, Chris has made his reservations about Jennifer very clear. And I’m sure she’s a big girl, and is able to stand up for herself in that regard as well. So I’ll find out what they both have to say, I’m always good with that.
So, let me just get back to a specific question then. I read 1 Corinthians 14 here as prescriptive, ‘What then brothers-‘ he’s correcting what they’re doing wrong. Because they’re all speaking in tongues, and interrupting each other, and so on.
‘What then brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, a revelation, a tongue, or an interpretation. Let all things be done for building up. If any man speak in a tongue, let there be two at most three, each in turn.’ It seems very prescriptive. And then he says, ‘God’s not a God of confusion but of peace.’ And then ends by saying, ‘So my brothers earnestly desire to prophesy, do not forbid speaking in tongues. But all things should be done in decency and in order.’
So, my point was, that even your ‘order of service’ to me violates the scriptural order that Paul puts forward here, or deviates from it. And I can say, ‘that’s your didasko, that’s your doctrine.’ You’d say, ‘no, no doctrine is not the order of service.’ Then I might say, ‘Well do you wear robes or not?’ Or, ‘Do you have any practice that is not explicitly found in the Bible?’
You would say, ‘Hey, here’s my opinion, or my view point, but this is how we do it in the Lutheran Church.’ And I’d respect that.
I’ve been in Pentecostal/Charismatic movement for the better part of 45+ years, and I’ve never really seen people confuse the issue of what Scripture says is God’s Word, and here’s a prophecy that has to be tested, that is at best a word from the Lord, and is never ‘the Word’ from God.
So, I’m not defending what might be flaky or not, that’s a whole separate subject. I’m just challenging what you are claiming what you quote ‘becomes doctrine’, and is the same as the Catholic Church saying we should worship Mary.”
Chris Rosebrough: “Okay, let me just come back to the text that you were quoting. 1 Corinthians 14, if you watch the Greek, watch the imperative. It says in verse 26, ‘What then brothers? When you come together, each one has a hymn, a lesson, and a revelation, tongue or an interpretation.’ That’s not actually a prescription, the imperative is in the next sentence. (Brown interrupts and speaks over the top of Chris)
Dr Michael Brown: “Hang on, I’m clear on the grammar, but is that what they were doing? Does that describe their meeting?
Chris Rosebrough: “Yeah, it describes how they’re going, but this is not saying, ‘Therefore every Christian service must be done in this way.’ That’s not what its saying.”
Dr Michael Brown: “But I thought they weren’t doing that?”
Chris Rosebrough: “The point of this particular passage is in the imperative. ‘Let all things be done for building up’. And then it puts order within the use of the charismatic gifts.
For instance, it is absolutely forbidden within a Christian church service that people would stand up and speak in a tongue without an interpreter. You know, ‘two or at the most three, somebody must interpret. If there is no interpreter, the one who has the gift of tongues must remain silent.’ Paul says.
And yet I can point to Church after church after church…(Cut off by Brown)
Dr Michael Brown: “No, no, we’re not concerned about that.”
Chris Rosebrough: “Where this is not happening.” (Brown speaks over the top of Rosebrough)
Dr Michael Brown: “Your church, I’m talking about your church. Cause Paul is saying this should be happening. This should be happening.”
Chris Rosebrough: “Everything done in our church is done for the building up of the body of Christ.” (Brown speaks over Rosebrough)
Dr Michael Brown: “So you have prophetic words?”
Chris Rosebrough: “We make a very careful distinction between what is (Green word), what is practiced in Christian freedom, as opposed to what is actually commanded. For instance, (Brown cuts off Rosebrough)
Dr Michael Brown: “But hang on, this is commanded, ‘Earnestly desire to prophesy.’ Which in context you know is explicitly talking about the gift of prophesy, and do not forbid speaking in tongues.
So, if I were at your service, and I felt lead to deliver a message in tongues, alright? And then someone with me had the interpretation that would be welcomed in your service? And your folks are encouraged, this is a commandment to earnestly seek the gift of prophecy, correct?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Yeah, absolutely. And understand this, the primary way in which prophecy is practiced today, a prophet is one who is given words from God to speak and to speak with His authority. The primary way in which this happens, is when a pastor ascends the pulpit and opens up the Word of God, and says, ‘Thus saith the Lord’.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Ahhhh, that’s your ‘didasko’, you just added to Scripture there. You have now put a different interpretation. Because Paul speaks of the gift of prophecy, and it’s totally separate from teaching and preaching.
But anyhow (stops Chris from responding), here’s my point Chris. I am quite sure that when it comes to the gift of healing, when it comes to other things… do you know how many people, when you’ve laid hands on them, anointed with oil have been miraculously healed? In accordance with the teaching in James 5, it’s a directive in how to practice things.
My difference is not with you, in terms of are there flaky things that happen in the charismatic church that claim to be from the Lord, but are not. Of course there are, just as there was in Paul’s day. My challenge to you, is that you make a distinction between, okay here’s what you can practice out of your own conscience and with freedom. You make that distinction, vs thus saith the Lord, this is Scripture.
Charismatic’s make that distinction as well. You don’t recognize it, it’s the world in which I live. We make the distinction, I’ve work with charismatic leaders around the world and none of them in a million years, in a billion years, would ever think that they could say, ‘God gave me a word for you, and this word now has the authority of Scripture behind it’.
But hey, listen, we’re out of time, I appreciate the call. I did want to give you the opportunity to give your website out, and information. Cause I remember I think we talked, did we talk about New Apostolic Reformation once?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Yes we did. I called after Bill Johnson appeared on your program.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Got it, got it. Listen Chris, you’ve only called twice in all this time that I’m aware of. My phone lines are always open if something relevant comes up. I think that the discussion in the mist of our differences is very helpful. I’m very glad for people to hear your point of view as we interact. Fair enough?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Fair enough. I look forward to hopefully seeing you when you get out to North Dakota.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Yeah, and keep lifting up Jesus, keep preaching the Word. I’ll do my best to do the same, alright?”
Chris Rosebrough: “Will do.”
Dr Michael Brown: “Alright, God bless you, thank you for the call. Yes, this is the discussion that we have on the Line of Fire…”
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