This footage of Heidi Baker (of Iris Global) was filmed at Bethel Church of Redding, California. It is important to remember that many churches around the world are influenced by these ministries (including Hillsong and C3).
After watching the contents of the below video, the obvious question is this: Why would parents want their kids involved or associated with these people?
Warning: This footage may disturb some viewers!
Categories: Bethel "Church", Iris Global
Reblogged this on Truth2Freedom's Blog.
she need to sit down — whoever is running this show need someone to rebuke him quickly – tell him to repent might save his soul– this from the onset sounds — like something she at last night – who has discernment—she’s out of order
I saw the same shaking and disorder at Brisbane’s Glory Gathering ‘church’ back in 2011 and 2012, when prominent people from Bethel at Redding California were the visiting ministry. People from the Elijah List act this way typically, believing that with a wave of their hand, the power of God is released.
I believe these lost souls are searching for something, but they are sorely deceived. /this is not the power of God, because God is not a God of disorder, but of order and peace within proper church meetings.
It is rebellion and it is not of God. These people (Bill Johnson, Heidi Baker et al) are false prophets who promote existential experiences, which cannot be found anywhere in God’s word, the Bible.
Comparisons are made between these types of NAR meetings and the early meetings of the Salvation Army under William and Catherine Booth. They are like chalk and cheese though, as those who experienced such manifestations back then in East London, were unsaved sinners, being delivered from demonic bondages. They were not ‘saints’ receiving a blessing from the Lord, as is claimed at NAR churches, when such things occur.
The NAR movement is literally a “church of tares”, and is to be avoided at all costs. The ‘fruit’ hanging on the NAR tree is the likes of Tod Benteley, and others like him, who bring dishonour to God, through their uncouth and bad behaviour, both on and off the platform.
I have witnessed this so much in my lifetime….I thought it was Deliverance….and I thought Heidi was a ‘topnotch’.
It’s not easy being a Christian. With all these “opportunists” seeing the Kingdom of God as a means to build their egos and sense of worth, and bank balance. They bring weirdness and deception, in the name of the King of Kings!
“With all these “opportunists” seeing the Kingdom of God as a means to build their…..bank balance.”
You are on target Annette. Bill Johnson’s church in redding teaches the false doctrine of ‘tithing’ (among many other false doctrines). Here is how much they raked in via tithes alone in 2010. This does not include: school tuitions, online tv fees, conferences, music, anything else:
“Bethel Church receives between $3 million and $4 million a year in tithes and offerings, Johnson said.”
http://www.redding.com/news/bethel-burgeons-under-pastors-visions-of
Bill Johnson has made tons of money from it:
“Compensation as president of Bill Johnson Ministry [ALONE] was $372,037 in 2007 (most recent figure available); salary as pastor of Bethel [IS NOT KNOWN].”
http://www.redding.com/news/bethel-church-bill-johnson
Sad on so many levels.
its so heartbreaking to see judgement in the body of Christ and people making comments out of sheer opinion and not personal experience. I have been in this place and met Heidi and the only thing she emparts is LOVE.
She was not pretending to read the bible at all, she was listening to the voice of the Holy Spirit, and that young man that she laid hands on was not receiving an evil spirit.. Ha ha If you only knew it’s actually quite the opposite. He would have been either laughing or crying or maybe even both together under those shakes which comes from the power of God when it is released over you. If you are a Christian then Jesus who is alive lives inside of you and we have the authority as His children to release His spiritual gifts over others. Even in Acts in the day of Pentecost they were seen to be drunk when the Spirit of the Lord came and baptised them with fire. This is not orderly people. This is a living, powerful God that likes to blow our way of thinking and our orderly religious ways out of the water.
Please pray and ask for spiritual discernment before making judgements based on what you see and even then if you find fault in a brother or a sister in Christ it is our job to Love and let God be the judge as He judges the hearts of men and we judge with our limited minds. The greatest commandment is that we would love the Lord God withal our hearts and that we would love each other as we love ourselves. Love and judgement do not reside together. And the fruit of this ministry is releasing the Kingdom of heaven and the love of God all over this world.
think logically for a moment here. Do you believe that we can pass around the Holy Spirit on our will? that is what this “impartation” is indicating. There is no where in scripture that says we can pass out the Holy Spirit like they claim to be doing. We also do not live by experience or by what we think we see, but faith in Jesus and God’s Holy Word.
also you should do some research on kundalini.
Our Lord is about order, peace and love, not wealth on this earth or really even health on this earth. The gospel is not about rolling in the floor needing a blanket to cover you up and needing someone to catch you when you fall over under this demonic experience. The Holy Spirit is about sound mind and body, having self-control. This stuff does not even have self control . . .
“Please pray and ask for spiritual discernment before making judgments”
Why? This is how you want us to discern:
“its so heartbreaking to see judgement in the body of Christ and people making comments out of sheer opinion and not personal experience.”
In exorcism and deliverance ministry, you need to pick up the bible and use it against the demonic.
In exorcism, the demonic often make it about you to distract you away from the bible. They make you rely on your authority. They will do everything they can to manipulate you into pushing God’s Word aside so they can trick you into thinking that you have power over them, not realising they have tricked you into being bound by them and not by God’s sovereign Word.
In case you missed what is being said: You are discerning the way the demons in hell want you to discern.
Frankly, you are being their mouthpiece.
It is wicked, deceitful and lazy people like you that allow demonic activity in the church in Jesus’ name – and this is blasphemous. Why are you encouraging people to abandon the Word of God and encourage people to embrace “personal experience” as the highest authority in this life?
That is how a pagan discerns what is right and wrong. Not a Christian.
A disciple of Jesus matures in the teachings of Christ and His Apostles. More importantly, Jesus teaches his disciples to judge and discern rightly. Their authority comes from the Word of God. And it appears you dislike that immeasurably.
And if you think that we aren’t spiritual, then here this: this is a pentecostal rebuking you for defending your paganism. You need to repent of your sins and pray to God to receive his mercy and grace.
BTW – What makes you think we have not met Heidi Baker personally? What makes you think that we have not experienced the demonic in her presence?
Rose
The only way to actually know the different kinds of love spoken of in the Scriptures is to be a disciple of Christ. There is no need to pray for discernment, a child could read the scriptures and memorize them and they would never find an example of the Holy Spirit acting in such a fashion. The only thing that ever controlled bodies in scripture by taking control of them were demonic, and Jesus told them to leave, depart be gone etc. You need not explain what she was doing, we have eyes to see and ears to hear, we know exactly what is going on. When you stand before Christ try playing the don’t judge me card and see how far that get’s you. The comments people are making are made because they read their bibles. You can experience any thing you like but when the scriptures show your experiences to be lacking they are to be exposed for what they are. Brothers and sisters in Christ don’t go around defending demonic activities on children. There is a mill stone with your name on it. Unit you become a Disciple of Christ and not Heidi you will not know the love of Christ. Your claim of love and judgement not residing together is a lie, God is Love and there will be judgement. We are to be holy as He is holy. Because you condone the actions in this video and are being rebuked for it doesn’t mean God doesn’t love you. Shining light on your darkness is not a lack of love. Pointing out the ways of your deception is not a lack of love. Showing you the darkness you are in is not a lack of love quite the opposite. This familiar spirit resides only in darkness, He has called His children out of darkness, now would be a good time to start the journey.
It’s sad that it seems that so many Christians would be one of those that on the day of Pentecost would say they are drunk with wine, I have come to realize Christian don’t need the enemy to accuse or condem them, Christians do it it to themselves, so did the religious people to Christ during Those days……
“I have been in this place and met Heidi and the only thing she emparts is LOVE.”
Rose, you need to start reading the Bible. The nonsense in that video is not found anywhere in Scripture.
“13 Others mocking said, These men are full of new wine.
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, lifted up his voice, and said unto them, Ye men of Judea, and all ye that dwell at Jerusalem, be this known unto you, and hearken to my words:
15 For these are not drunken, as ye suppose, seeing it is but the third hour of the day.
16 But this is that which was spoken by the prophet Joel;” Acts 2:13 – 16
Peter the apostle, makes it abundantly clear that the disciples were not drunk with wine. To equate their new found baptism in the Holy Spirit, with carnal drunkenness is an affront to God – this was their divinely appointed day that Jesus Himself had promised to them before His ascension into Heaven, and can in no way be associated with a bunch of (spiritually) drunken revelers that are paraded regularly throughout these false NAR “revivals”.
I’m sorry Rose, but the Bible is clear on judging those who are teaching false doctrines and practices within the Church:
“17 Now I beseech you, brethren, mark them which cause divisions and offences contrary to the doctrine which ye have learned; and avoid them.
18 For they that are such serve not our Lord Jesus Christ, but their own belly; and by good words and fair speeches deceive the hearts of the simple.”
‘Simple’ people are being deceived and defrauded of their hard earned ca$h in order to line the pockets of these and many other false prophets.
Discernment and judgement are two different things. They may be saying “Jesus”, but this is far from Christianity. Lord have Mercy.
He looks like he’s in symbiosis with someone in hell.
Heidi Baker and Bethel church in Redding are manifesting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in their words and much, much good fruit for the kingdom of Christ. I fully support them. This video is not ” demonic”
If they are manifesting “the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in their words” then why is it so common for them to lie about God and His Word?
They seem to speak the language of Satan. And his language is lies and false accusation.
“Heidi Baker and Bethel church in Redding are manifesting the presence of our Lord Jesus Christ in their words and much, much good fruit for the kingdom of Christ. I fully support them. This video is not ” demonic”
There was nothing biblical in that video. You support something that Scripture does not support. Frankly, what is shown in that video is truly wicked.
Everything that happened in the Bible was new at the time. It is wrong to limit God to always repeat bits from 66 old books. Elijah called down fire from Heaven, yet we are warned non believers can feign this. The Bible tells us we discern by fruits, by that what is done is called upon from God from Elohim. God is stronger and wiser than Satan, the latter cannot slip himself into a prayer to God being answered. In groups there is assurance that only what is spoken is believed in common. And Jesus warned us that people will call the Holy Spirit Satan or Beelzebub, and that those who do this are in danger of committing the unpardonable sin. We need take into account power, dunamis and not merely vocal gifts practice. Peace.
“It is wrong to limit God to always repeat bits from 66 old books.”
Well if you are an example of someone who doesn’t limit God to “66 old books” then you are not advertising your Christianity well. Your nonsense will only encourage people to stick to the 66 books of the bible.
God at the times of events was always doing new things. He is not limited to bits of 66 books.
Elijah did a new thing and called down fire from Heaven. We are warned tricksters can do the same and deceive the elect. The Bible has us go by a few things. Who is called upon? Elohim? In a group, people can only go by what is said and receive accordingly. Satan would hate to slip in healing, freedom or agape love, and cannot slip in anything for God is stronger, wiser and omnipresent. Wesley Methodism and Pentecostalism began with power events. The fruit shows us what is good and what is not of God. Why would people come back to lose their peace, we know what is of God, if it gives us wholeness. That is scriptural. In context, decent and in order is for vocal gifts. Jesus warned us that people would call the Holy Spirit Satan, Beelzebul. And that they are in danger of committing the unpardonable sin.
“Elijah did a new thing and called down fire from Heaven.”
@ DeceivedSanctuary,
That’s hardly considered a ‘new thing.’ It is clearly detailed in 1 and 2 Kings.
Yep I went to a church like that when I was a new Christian.
I got sucked into some of it but I mostly though it was hogwash so I asked God to reveal truth to me and he did. Each time I went after that I felt more and more uneasy and I eventually stopped going. God saved me again that day from deception. I do not b
Listen to any of garbage they spew out of their mouthes because it is all tainted with Satans lies.
Yep I went to a church like that when I was a new Christian. I got sucked into some of it but I mostly though it was hogwash so I asked God to reveal truth to me and he did. Each time I went after that I felt more and more uneasy and I eventually stopped going. God saved me again that day from deception. I do not listen to any of garbage they spew out of their mouthes because it is all tainted with Satans lies.
The content in this video is truly disturbing on many levels.
I watched this video and the odd ball comments, like to begin with, “she is pretending to read the Bible”. It was good work from Heidi. We can experience these things that are so called “indecent and out of order.” This verse alluded to is only for taking turns in speaking vocal spiritual gifts. There is order in the or a house. In the field, there is a time for dunamis, from where we get the word dynamite. God’s power must seem disorderly, but those who taste it know it is good, the fruits are good. They stand up free. I have tasted it and rightly want and know I need more! Simply repetition can be asking for more. And we ought not call the Holy Spirit who heals, frees and warms hearts, Satan who would hate to do such things, for the Lord deserves honour. God is allegorical, fire feels hot and makes a person move. Electricity, cold living water, tangible oil of the Spirit. So like in Churchill’s England there is a time and place for dunamis, dynamite, in the fields for iron, in the iron barrels, and in making way for new buildings. Work in the human spirit, work in deliverance, works of healing and love changes, all good. True a deacon can err or sin, but it is under control, with two or three witnesses coming forward. Comments made about Heidi are guesses not discernment. It’s a fail. Wesley’s Methodism, and Pentecostalism began with dunamis manifestations. Greek for power! Alternate to vocal gifts which they were taught to do in turns, contrary to what they had done before. We need to experience Jesus and the Holy Spirit like them, more and more, that is knowing God. And I think we know the word of God better than you. Some of us have degrees and doctorates.
“And I think we know the word of God better than you.”
Yeah you know it so well you can’t back up what’s in that video with Scripture.
“Some of us have degrees and doctorates.”
You wasted your money.
OK, I’ll start as essay tonight for you.
“There is order in the or a house. In the field, there is a time for dunamis, from where we get the word dynamite.”
Please read up on the “Semantic Anachronism”. The way you have interpreted the word ‘dunamis’ is incorrect.
http://www.ntgreekstudies.com/blog/common-exegetical-fallacies
Your entire argument is false based on your faulty extraction of the word ‘dunamis’.
“There is order in the or a house”
The spiritually blind failed to notice there was no order in that video. Maybe you need to relocate out of that lawless commune in with some true believers.
“Wesley’s Methodism, and Pentecostalism began with dunamis manifestations. Greek for power!”
Being a Pentecostal Christian for more than 30 years, I disagree. Having studied both Methodism and Pentecostal history, I can assure you ‘dunamissanctuary’ that both revivals started with repentance, which they should’ve.
ANY movement or major event that claims to be a ‘revival’ and does not have repentance at its core, is manifestly false, and the manifestations cannot be of God. God will not give His Holy Spirit to those who will not repent!
Peter said it himself:
“Then Peter said unto them, “Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.” Acts 2:38
Even if you believe that miracles and gifts of the Spirit are for today, without repentance you will not see or partake of the genuine article. I have seen some of the biggest fake revivalists in our time, over many years and guess what? They are still fakes some 30 years later…
“Even if you believe that miracles and gifts of the Spirit are for today, without repentance you will not see or partake of the genuine article. I have seen some of the biggest fake revivalists in our time, over many years and guess what? They are still fakes some 30 years later…”
You are correct. My first pastor after I got saved (OUTSIDE his church) was pushing false prophets 30 years ago. That was before I knew better as a new Christian.
Wanna guess where he is today 30 years later? With an even bigger church, more tithers, a pastrix added to his pastoral staff, a satellite church in south america, and TTTTOOOONNNNNSSSSS of false teachers constantly being invited to speak. His front door is a welcome sight for both nar and prosperity pimp type teachers. He also has now around 8 books he’s pushing constantly, his own t.v. show, and gained 50 pounds from pure wretched indulgence thanks to those huge tithes. A real winner alright.
Praise God that I wisened up before I got in too deep, like this confused Dunamis person is now.
We should not be embarrassed by Jesus or grumble.
Again you have not backed up what’s in that video with Scripture, nor can you, nor will you ever be able to, because what’s in the video is not Scriptural.
If it walks like a Tare, talks like a Tare, and quacks like a Tare — it’s a Tare.
Tares in scripture are described as…?
https://thorsanvil.wordpress.com/2015/10/12/tares-amongs-the-wheat/
“We should not be embarrassed by Jesus or grumble.”
Which is why we stick to the bible. We aren’t embarrassed about embracing the “66 old books” which you seem to speak down upon.
The 66 old book are great and the apocrypha and fine, but just that God does new things and could not be contained in a box.
“God does new things and could not be contained in a box.”
What happens if God says he chooses to be contained and bound by His Word? Will you start spelling your god with a little ‘g’?
God is not contained, he keeps his promises, Jesus broke the law to restore wholeness. Where does God say he chooses to be contained? That he no longer does new things? That he he used to but now it is different it is all set? And further restrictive news, even if someone repeats the miracle God gave Elijah and they call down fire, it could be counterfeit. How can God show forth and be believed in?
Okay. Let’s see if you believe in the Christian God or not. Is the God you believe limitless?
“and the apocrypha and fine”
You contradict the early church fathers. They rejected the apocrypha. Quite an authority you are.
We best not be embarrased by Jesus or grumble.
‘dunamis’, these liars in this false signs movement have totallly indoctrinated poor ‘ol gullible you
Folks, one of the most disturbing things to come out of *dunamissanctuary’s* posts, is that demonic manifestations are now backed up by “doctorates and degrees”…
Well, in that case, I’m glad I never went to ‘Bible school’ – aren’t someof you???
Apollo, yes, at least I’d stay away from the ‘Bible school’ “dunamissanctuary” attended. Hopefully it wasn’t one of those sham bogus nar ‘miracle’ or ‘supernatural’ schools.
And hopefully he’ll pull out of his spiritual deathwish tailspin before the antichrist is revealed, otherwise “dunamissanctuary” may try to back him up with those “doctorates and degrees” also…
Where does God’s word say he is contained? He keeps his laws, but broke the written law as example, to restore wholeness, the greater end. That is not good news, but restrictive news or legalism. God is spelled with a capital because it is a name. The box Moses created out of wood an gold makes a Bible theme, God cannot be contained in a box, he is more like a river that can carry one away, like Ezekiel. A river of life. The captors returned the ark because they could not contain it. God fills people, Jesus fulfils the ark message.
God does new things, that is how the Bible is written, and Elijah called down a consuming fire. We are told it can be counterfeited. But then how can God prove something to us? According to the Bible God does new things. He is wiser and more powerful than Satan.
“God cannot be contained in a box, he is more like a river that can carry one away, like Ezekiel. A river of life.”
Hey dunamissanctuary, the River of Life you speak of is mentioned here:
“1 Then he showed me a river of the water of life, clear as crystal, coming from the throne of God and of the Lamb,
2 in the middle of its street. On either side of the river was the tree of life, bearing twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit every month; and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.”
Revelation 22:1
It is contained well within the courts of Heaven and hasn’t flooded the New Jerusalem. You may want to spiritualise its purpose, but it exists literally, and isn’t “carrying anyone away” downriver… You have swallowed pure Latter Rain teaching, which twists many plain scriptures for its own ends.
Oh, and the ‘box’ you mentioned – it’s there too – God didn’t “forget” about it at all:
“And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.”
Revelation 11:19
So much for those who posess ‘degrees and doctorates’ – they can’t even find a simple ‘box’ inside Heaven’s courts… 🙂
“God cannot be contained in a box, he is more like a river that can carry one away, like Ezekiel. A river of life.”
You sound like Phil Pringle. He claims to have a ‘river of miracles’ flowing out of his belly, that he can’t wait to deliver.
“The 66 old book are great and the apocrypha and fine,”
The Apocrypha are fine??? dunamis, the only people who believe that the apocrypha are “fine” are Catholic theologians, and those who are silly enough to follow their unbiblical views.
Those writings are not inspired by the Holy Spirit and were not included in the 66 books by the Church at large, for that very reason.
Again – so much for ‘doctorates and degrees’. You don’t know what you’re talking about…
The Messianic Jews and Catholics always had those books. Martin Luther rejected them and almost rejected James’ epistle. I have not got a degree…
I think I recall the angel Raphael comes from a reading in Tobit.
“The Messianic Jews and Catholics always had those books.”
Not sure what’s your point? Not sure why you mention this as a clarification. You were the one who brought the Apocrypha up. No matter who “has those books”, it doesn’t matter, they’re not in the official canon of Scripture.
“Martin Luther rejected them and almost rejected James’ epistle.”
He almost rejected Revelation too. But both James & Revelation made it into the canon. So I’m not sure exactly what’s your point?
“The Messianic Jews and Catholics always had those books. Martin Luther rejected them and almost rejected James’ epistle. I have not got a degree…
I think I recall the angel Raphael comes from a reading in Tobit.”
Sorry dunamissanctuary, but I had to cut and paste your previous comment down here as I couldn’t find a reply link up above…
As I understand it, some of the Apocryphal books are based on myth and legend, others are stories from around the time of the Maccabees – those who rose up against their Greek ruler Antiochus Epiphenes. They were not meant to be a part of the Canon of scripture for the New Testament church.’
The Jews also held to the ‘Quaballa’ – a very ancient group of occult texts, which they brought back from their captivity in Babylon, but this did not qualify the Quabala, just because the Jews owned it or highly regarded it. It meant that they were backslidden and were sold under idolatry and had forsaken the ways of the Lord. The Torah and the temple were just fronts for their own secret societies – the Pharisees and Sadducees, and they are the two groups that made up the Sanhedrin, who opposed Jesus and ultimately put Him to death, through the agency of Rome.
as for Martin Luther’s rejection of Jame’s apostolic letter – it was based on the verse “show me your faith by your works” ( ) as Luther was attempting to move the Church away from works based salvation, and parts of Jame’s letter seemed to be works based, just like Catholicism.
It was only in his last 5 years of life that Luther realised that the Antinomians of his day were taking such license with their version of ‘faith and grace’ that he finally understood James to be saying “show me your (genuine Christian) faith by your (charitable) works (that the Holy Spirit has inspired and made way for.)”
Luther finally validated James’ epistle because the false teaching of ‘boundless grace’ (no boundaries – just ‘grace’) which had evidently made shipwreck of so many people’s lives, who had followed that error to its full extent, and had found themselves to be well outside the bounds of morality and conscience, and therefore well outside the circle of the saints…
Man all of yal are pitiful sitting so high and holy so quick to deem anything that looks different from what you’ve ever experienced to be not of God…you know a tree by its fruit and the fruit you all bear is rotten, sitting here gossiping, slandering, backbitting , a child of God..she has lead multiples to Christ to be redeemed, built orphanages, actually lived in the darkness to allow her light to radiate….what have you done?
Well Joe you couldn’t have said it better, It is all about what she has done now isn’t it? She has done nothing to redeem anyone. By your “lack of logic” if I have done more then I would be right and she would be wrong, it doesn’t work that way. What she is doing looks no different than many other deceived meetings going on around the world. The meetings will continue as long as there are “Joe’s” to defend their actions so they can remain on their emotional highs. Remove the goats and the goat farmer will go out of business.
What’s being done is essential, that the Gospel commission is being fulfilled. And by who, and how? Before Jesus returns, the world must hear the Gospel. But will grumblers accomplish this? And how can the foretold great falling away happen unless there is a rising to place first? Who raises people up in the darkness? Why do they seek peace in Heidi’s congregation? Are there a billion Pentecostals now? Some grumble, some preach, the masses are able to think for themselves.
“Some grumble, some preach, the masses are able to think for themselves.”
Very interesting remark, coming from a Bible ‘scholar.. I don’t know what new age Bible version you read, but that’s not according to the KJV. According to the KJV in Luke 13:23-24 the masses are going to hell:
“Then said one unto him, Lord, are there few that be saved? And he said unto them, Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.”
“What’s being done is essential, that the Gospel commission is being fulfilled.”
Like catching Heidi Baker’s strange fish LoL. What a faker:
“Judas was too, and he opted for the “money option” to betray the Son of God.”
Very true, rich kelley. even though judas was within the 12 people inner-circle who were closest to the gospel in the entire world, judas still fell for a form of “prosperity gospel.” (even while hearing the truth firsthand day and night for 3 years!) he sold out to the chief priests for 30 pieces silver, only $600-750 in today’s money. and while ‘dippin’ in the money purse.
“But will grumblers accomplish this? Some grumble,”
dunamissanctuary, what you’re saying is unbiblical and nonsensical. calling out lies or False doctrines is not equivocal to “grumbling”.
According to you, pointing out doctrinal-behavioral errors is “grumbling”. why do you hate what the Bible says?
2 timothy 3:16 [All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:]
1 corinthians 5:11 [But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolater, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.]
it is actually **you** who is the “grumbler” since you are the one grumbling against many instructional verses!
That’s so true Rich Kelly – https://thorsanvil.wordpress.com/2015/10/13/goats-amongst-the-sheep/
“Man all of yal are pitiful sitting so high and holy”
‘High and holy?’ You mean like Her Holiness Heidi Baker speaking false words and attributing them to God?
“she has lead multiples to Christ to be redeemed”
To which Christ? You meant she has led multiples to the false christ, false spirit, and false gospel.
“built orphanages,”
Heidi Baker’s works are like filthy rags. Matthew 7:23 “Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you workers of lawlessness.'”
“what have you done?”
And as for yourself Holy Joe, since you are so fond of boasting about Heidi’s works, why not tell us how many of these ‘orphanages’ YOU have personally built?
“…she has lead multiples to Christ to be redeemed, built orphanages, actually lived in the darkness to allow her light to radiate….what have you done?”
Well, actually Joe, what we’ve done is to shine a lot of light on Heidi Bakker’s darkness – that’s what we’ve done!
“14 No wonder, for even Satan disguises himself as an angel of light.
15 Therefore it is not surprising if his servants also disguise themselves as servants of righteousness, whose end will be according to their deeds.” 2 Corinthians 11:14-15
It must be remembered Joe, that Jesus Himself was tempted by Satan but did not fail. Judas was too, and he opted for the “money option” to betray the Son of God. False prophets are after your money, because they can’t build their own kingdoms without it, and are quite happy to put on a show for a time and a season in order to get it – to ‘support the orphanage’ or to ‘reach out to Africa’… but where does it really go?
“Quench not the Spirit. Despise not prophesyings. Prove all things; Hold fast that which is good.” 1 Thessalonians 5:19-21. This person is not adding to God’s Word. She is saying that she is impressed by the Holy Spirit that this person will be faithful in following the Lord. Also, that the person’s lifestyle will impact not only this generation but the next. This is nothing more than affirming that when we live a life that honors
God we will see the impact not only in this generation but the next. There is some indication that there will be a ministry to youth.. This a manifesting of the word of wisdom.
“But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit; “1 Corinthians 12:7,8.
If you believe all of God;s Word is God Breathed. you can not pick and choose which verses you believe. Regardless of what any fellowship teaches. when Word of God contradicts that teaching then you must always realize that the Word of God is the final authority.
“This person is not adding to God’s Word. She is saying that she is impressed by the Holy Spirit that this person will be faithful in following the Lord”
The boy in the video is having an unscriptural spaz attack. What are you missing about that?
Where in the Bible does it mention, what is a wrongful response to the presence and power of God?
“Where in the Bible does it mention, what is a wrongful response to the presence and power of God?”
You can’t be serious with a statement like this. If you can’t twist the scripture then you claim it isn’t in scripture and thus anything you want to conger up is OK because chapter and verse can’t be quoted?
Jesus never said a lot of things about a lot of things but that doesn’t leave the rationalization door open for what ever you want it to be. Read anything in the New Testament that speaks of the Holy Spirit and you will not find any example of what the videos show. Someone in the crowd mentioning drunkenness is not the Holy Spirit but some unsaved comment from the peanut gallery. If we are not to be drunk on wine then we are not to be drunk on anything thing else you want to mention. (This would include demonic spirits)
He will write His laws in our minds and in our Hearts, but first He removes the scales from the eyes, watching these videos and not seeing what they are requires major surgery with an eye doctor.
“Where in the Bible does it mention, what is a wrongful response to the presence and power of God?”
LUKE 9:42
“Even while the boy was coming, the demon threw him to the ground in a convulsion. But Jesus rebuked the impure spirit, healed the boy and gave him back to his father.”
That is as good a description as any of what the boy was doing in this video. Convulsing beyond control.
Furthermore, the Bible never describes uncontrollable convulsing and weeping in a sickly manner as a natural or acceptable response to the “presence and power of God.”
Though some things, like this video, don’t require a verse. They only require common sense, which Heidi Baker supporters seem to be struggling with.
You do not need to watch The Exorcist 50 times to realize what’s going on in this video was not healthy.
Heidi Baker has the same ‘spirit’ as Todd Bentley’s wife, which is no big surprise since they’re in the same circle. Who here wants to be part of this freakshow?
PEOPLE who do not know how to recognize the spirit of God are without understanding and they rely strictly on only what is tangible or written out in print. Heidi is not pretending to read but she is relying on the holy spirit to minister to the people what God gives her through the holy spirit. But for those that need scripture to justify everything here is one from 2 Corinthians 1 in here the word of God says The Spirit, Not the Letter
verse 4 And we have such trust through Christ toward God. 5 Not that we are sufficient of ourselves to think of anything as being from ourselves, but our sufficiency is from God, 6 who also made us sufficient as ministers of the new covenant, NOT OF THE LETTER BUT OF THE SPIRIT;[a] for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. I will take this a little further now, Do you remember what the scripture says about Moses and the glory of God, and how the people responded. The awe! of such glory that was upon Moses The people dared to not even come close, they lacked the understanding of this remarkable glory upon Moses a glory that faded. This phrase :where the spirit of the Lord is there is freedom what does this mean???? freedom to sin and judge, I think not. Freedom to give what comes from the spirit?? READ ON: Glory of the New Covenant
7 But if the ministry of death, written and engraved on stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of the glory of his countenance, which glory was passing away, 8 how will the ministry of the Spirit not be more glorious? 9 For if the ministry of condemnation had glory, the ministry of righteousness exceeds much more in glory. 10 For even what was made glorious had no glory in this respect, because of the glory that excels. 11 For if what is passing away was glorious, what remains is much more glorious.
12 Therefore, since we have such hope, we use great boldness of speech— 13 unlike Moses, who put a veil over his face so that the children of Israel could not look steadily at the end of what was passing away. 14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Testament, because the veil is taken away in Christ. 15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart. 16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away. 17 Now the Lord is the Spirit; and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty. 18 But we all, with unveiled face, beholding as in a mirror the glory of the Lord, are being transformed into the same image from glory to glory, just as by the Spirit of the Lord. And in …..1 Corinthians 2 speaks of the mystery of God and the HIDDEN wisdom ordained before the ages for our glory… It speaks of things that will be REVEALED through the holy spirit for the spirit searches and knows the deep things of God. it goes on to say that these spiritual things will not be received by the natural man and that man considers the things of the spirit of God as foolishness see here…… Spiritual Wisdom
6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
9 But as it is written:
“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]
10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.
13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.
When John was caught up in the spirit and saw visions of heaven and the Lord in all His spender and majesty, the glory and the gold and the jewels oh how amazing Johns seeing was in the spirit! AND BECAUSE THIS WAS WRITTEN AND RECORDED IT BECAME AN EXCEPTIONABLE THING FOR THE NATURAL MAN. But today when someone sees in spirit a vision of the deep things of God of crowns and and oils and and an overflow of giving into the our children, whom Jesus distinctly pointed them out as the kingdom of heaven. OUR NATURAL MAN TODAY REJECTS this type of vision and revealed knowledge We reject it because it is not written in letter and we fear anything not written in the word because HOW can it be of God if it is not written in the word, It must be evil. Today we lack understanding! we lack spiritual understanding! Had Heidi been John or viseversa would we have accepted it? if the vission John saw then was presented today and was not written in the word would we accept it for what it is or would we call it evil??
The scriptures say that if all the thing that Jesus had done were written the books could not contain it!!! Do you not know that there are thing not written. there are thing to YET be revealed and the contain glory and slender just as what Heidi presented by the spirit. freely give what you have received we need to sew into our children the maturity that has taken us so long to gain. AND THERE IS AN ABUNDACE IN CHRIST HE IS AN INHERITANCE THAT IS NOT SMALL!!! AT ALL AND SUCH GLORY IS MENT TO BE UPON US THAT WE COULD NOT UNDERSTAND TODAY
Yes! What Heidi speaks is truth and is from Jesus Christ Himself. KJV–Hebrews 12:28,29 “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.” I challenge you accusers of this type of Holy Spirit manifestation to look at the fruit of this boy’s life next week, next year, in 5 years—there are many, many testimonies of lives changed and addictions sickness and depression healed after these God encounters you accusers call “demonic.” A house divided against itself cannot stand, and our Lord Jesus Himself was accused of being demonic too but those who encountered his fire walked away FREE
“there are many, many testimonies of lives”
There testimonies are invalid if Heidi Baker is proven to be a fraud. How dare you elevate men’s experiences above what God’s Word actually says of her.
Satan will come with signs and wonders, will you defend Satan when he comes with lying signs and wonders? There will be many amazing testimonies talking how Satan changed their life. Even how Satan raised someone from death.
It is appalling to see so many so-called “Christians” defend frauds in the name of God by not even using God’s Word.
We have seen her move in the demonic first hand and seen her prophesy falsely. If you want to defend false prophets then you are only walking with them down the wide road of “good intentions.”
What does “God’s word actually say of her”?
Here is what God’s word says of her and what is shown here in the video:
Luke 3:16 KJV “John answered, saying unto them all, I indeed baptize you with water; but one mightier than I cometh, the latchet of whose shoes I am not worthy to loose: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost and with fire.”
Acts 19:6 KJV
“And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Ghost came upon them; and they spake with tongues and prophesied.”
“For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.” 2 Peter 1:21 KJV
“And when the unclean spirit had torn him, and cried with a loud voice, he came out of him.” Mark 1:25 KJV
“And they went forth and preached every where, The Lord working with them, and confirming the word with signs following.” Mark16:20
And what Jesus’ accusers said about him (which is what Heidi’s accusers say about her):
“Because they said, He hath an unclean spirit.” Mark 3:30 KJV
In response to your question what will I do if Satanists show me signs and good fruit–
FYI: There are already those out there that claim Satan raised them from the dead–I’m sticking with
JESUS, and Heidi Baker is speaking the true words of Jesus Christ
“Yes! What Heidi speaks is truth and is from Jesus Christ Himself. KJV–Hebrews 12:28,29 “Wherefore we receiving a kingdom which cannot be moved, let us have grace, whereby we may serve God acceptably with reverence and godly fear: For our God is a consuming fire.”
@Paula, that verse has no bearing on validating this demonic behavior.
You have NO exegetical skills whatsoever.
“there are many, many testimonies of lives changed and addictions sickness and depression healed after these God encounters”
‘God encounters’? You’ve been listening to too many idiotic messages from BANNING LIEBSCHER.
“I challenge you accusers of this type of Holy Spirit manifestation to look at the fruit of this boy’s life next week, next year, in 5 years”
Noone need wait 5 years, you can look at the one giving him the ‘impartation’ now. Heidi Baker is a mess. Only an idiot would let that heretic lay hands on him. Hopefully the lad won’t receive a ‘double portion’ of her tragicness.
As in many situations, discernment is vital for believers. During the Toronto Blessing in the 1990’s, I believe the Spirit of God was present but the counterfeit was also present. As I watched this video I can safely say that I have heard similar “words” but since I do not personally know Heidi, I can not say whether this is an authentic prophetic word or not. I am greatly troubled however, with the young man writhing on the floor next to her. That looks as demonic as the folks banging their heads on the wall during the Toronto Blessing. Leaders, such as Bill Johnson, should step in when they see this and not let it continue. That was a problem at the Toronto Blessing as well and undermined the work of the Spirit during those days.
” but since I do not personally know Heidi, I can not say whether this is an authentic prophetic word or not…”
H – with all due respect to you – you can’t discern just by observing the ‘prophet’ themselves. You must be able to judge from God’s word as to whether they have a ministry of any kind at all, and as to whether what is coming out of their mouths, lines up with that word – the Bible. True ministries will exhibit cetain character and qualities – false ministries are often exhibitionists, are money grubbing, can put up a good ‘smoke screen, while they are doing lots of bad things behind the scenes, but all the followers ever see is ‘love’…
If we neglect to use the scriptures as our final ‘measuring stick’, then what standard do we use? Our feelings, our relationship with the ‘prophet’? True prophets of God do not “run hot and cold” either – they either have a genuine, steady ‘word’ from God (based on the scriptures – sound doctrine, orthodox practices etcetera, or they do not. Heidi Bakker does not appear to have those things, and if you don’t believe that, then just watch the video again.
When the prophets of Baal were active in Israel during the time of Ahab and Jezebel, Elijah may not have personally ‘known’ any of them. Even if he did know some of them, he was convinced that ALL of them were false prophets, who were intent on deceiving a whole nation away from the things of God.
What you are seeing on this video, is typical NAR stuff – existential experiences (designed to get the crowd going with no scripture backing anything that’s happening,) and to which no credible Pentecostal or Charismatic believer would subscribe to, as being genuine. None of this NAR ‘revival’ stuff can be found anywhere from Genesis to Revelation – none of it!
Bethel and Heidi Baker have lost it, which is a shame and very sad given the band Jesus Culture seemed Anointed. I always though Bill Johnson was a narcissist with a huge ego. Just the way he talks. Also I’ve heard him use occult and witchcraft terms like ‘portals’. The devil is O so subtle. He takes a truth like the gifts of the Spirit and the Spirit-filled life and leads well-meaning Christians into dodgy things. Take the latest fad of Bethel, John Crowder and the Latter Rain crowd: ‘grave sucking’. This is a form of necromancy, a black magic practice. Benny Hinn is also into necromancy. He says he’s had conversations in a vision with Kathryn Kulmann. Kathryn would be appalled by Benny claiming this. We all have to be ever so careful, stay close to the Holy Scriptures and use ‘sanctified common sense’. Barking like dogs, writhing like a snake, laughing like hyenas and practices like ‘grave sucking’ is not the Holy Spirit. It’s the manifestation of ‘another spirit’ and ‘another gospel’ and ‘another jesus’.
“Also I’ve heard him use occult and witchcraft terms like ‘portals’.”
I’m glad someone mentioned this. Yes Bill Johnson teaches there are ‘portals’. I have heard his people saying Paul the Apostle could only do miracles ‘while inside a portal’. That is ridiculous, and it’s not in the Bible.
I have also heard that several of Bill & Beni Johnson’s in house Health and Wellness coaches are graduates of the new age “Institute for Integrative Nutrition.”
Hi Donald – just for the folks who haven’t come across this rampant kind of heresy before, here’s a few links that explain some of their very BAD false doctrines and practices:
http://beyondgrace.blogspot.com.au/2011/07/bill-johnson-and-john-crowders-leaven.html
http://youthapologeticstraining.com/grave-sucking/
https://rooftopsandrafters.wordpress.com/anything-goes-even-if-it-is-occultic/
As usual, I’m not endorsing everything on those websites, but they do contain some relevant information to this thread.
Several years ago, there was a young woman at the Glory Gathering in Brisbane, who was tagged as the ‘prayer pastor’ on the then ministry team list (her name has since been deleted for reasons unknown). That title in itself looked rather innocuous at the time, until it was revealed later on that her ‘prayers’ were not said at your usual midweek bible study/prayer meeting kind of gathering.
She was actually engaged in what is called “spiritual mapping” where each part of a towns or city’s or country’s history is actually researched. A huge amount of work goes into that study, so that the demons who have a ‘hold’ over that area can be ‘discerned’ and rebuked. This is how they believe their Dominionist/Reconstructionist beliefs will be put into practice will be put into action.
You can thank C Peter Wagner for all of that rubbish, as he was snuck into the country back in 1989 under the aegis of the then AOG. A pastor from Townsville called David Cartledge imported Mr Wagner so he could speak to AOG leaders about this “new move of God” which was really the old LRM (Latter Rain Movement) regurgitated into the then fledgling NAR.
Since that time, the NAR has gained a lot of footholds where the old LRM could not, as the LRM had openly promoted cultish doctrines such as ‘shepherding and discipling’ which were really ungodly methods of control, and the ‘manifest sons of god’ doctrine as well as unbiblical practices such as ‘rebaptising’ people “into the name”. of a falsely constructed ‘trinity’. After some period of time, people began to wake up to this insidious yet subtle movement of salvation based on works, and the LRM started to dry up all over the place.
Today’s modern NAR movement has gone light years beyond the old LRM, teaching its disciples that they can literally “pull Heaven down to Earth” but all you get for all of the hype, is existential experiences like what you see on this and many other ”ministry” videos – just a lot of hype. There’s very little or no Bible talk, but lots of demonic manifestations, (which only convince those who don’t know their Bibles,) that they are in the midst of another “move of God”…
“Today’s modern NAR movement has gone light years beyond the old LRM, teaching its disciples that they can literally “pull Heaven down to Earth”
Yes Bill Johnson has gone on and on about this concept on multiple occasions, example here:
Totally agree with donaldelley. The devil will always distort the things of God. These people are self seeking, not God seeking.
I see guess work not discernment in the likening of the demoniac boy in the Gospel to the quaking of the young man in the video, and then instead of at least accepting one rightly discerns by fruits, one says, he doesn’t want to know the five years later account from him.
What is NAR?
Revival does not only start with repentance, it can bring about repentance, and strengthen hearts to repent and receive Christ, or receive the blood of Christ and that makes the heart clean. More than repentance character change begins and can flourish in revival.
I would say a Pentecostal who does not pray in tongues or interpret… is not really one any more.
Working of miracles is not in itself, a validation of a ministry. Simon the sorcerer in Acts 8 could do some spectacular things (even if the Bible doesn’t list them). Certainly the locals were impressed enough to call him “the great power of god” – but which god dunamis??? Which god?
Not the God of Phillip or Peter – he had to ask them in order to buy that power, because he didn’t have it, and the apostle rejected him, telling him that he was in “the gall of bitterness” because without THAT power, his ‘bag of tricks’ ministry was over up there in Samaria. The church was moving in and Simon would be forced to move on.
“What is NAR”? The New Apostolic Reformation – or so its proponents would say, but it is just the old Latter Rain Movement (LRM) that has been beefed up with a whole new dictionary of terminology, new false doctrines and some very cultish/occultish practices – Google NAR – it’s all out there online…
Most if not all of your comments appear disjointed and disoriented. Anyway, on this one comment:
“I would say a Pentecostal who does not pray in tongues or interpret”
I was in-and-out of several Pentecostal churches for a good bit of time. Though I saw many speak in tongues, NOT ONCE did I ever see anyone interpret. Which I find rather strange.
Honestly, when was the last time you saw someone “interpret” tongues?
2003, just needs a congregation with that gift.
New American Standard Bible
The Use of Spiritual Gifts
1 Corinthians 12
“Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I do not want you to be unaware. You know that when you were pagans, you were led astray to the mute idols, however you were led. Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God says, “Jesus is accursed”; and no one can say, “Jesus is Lord,” except by the Holy Spirit.
Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. And there are varieties of ministries, and the same Lord. There are varieties of effects, but the same God who works all things in all persons. But to each one is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. 8For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.
For even as the body is one and yet has many members, and all the members of the body, though they are many, are one body, so also is Christ. For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.”
For the body is not one member, but many. 15If the foot says, “Because I am not a hand, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. And if the ear says, “Because I am not an eye, I am not a part of the body,” it is not for this reason any the less a part of the body. If the whole body were an eye, where would the hearing be? If the whole were hearing, where would the sense of smell be? But now God has placed the members, each one of them, in the body, just as He desired. If they were all one member, where would the body be? But now there are many members, but one body. And the eye cannot say to the hand, “I have no need of you”; or again the head to the feet, “I have no need of you.” On the contrary, it is much truer that the members of the body which seem to be weaker are necessary; and those members of the body which we deem less honorable, on these we bestow more abundant honor, and our less presentable members become much more presentable, whereas our more presentable members have no need of it. But God has so composed the body, giving more abundant honor to that member which lacked, so that there may be no division in the body, but that the members may have the same care for one another. And if one member suffers, all the members suffer with it; if one member is honored, all the members rejoice with it.
Now you are Christ’s body, and individually members of it. And God has appointed in the church, first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, administrations, various kinds of tongues. All are not apostles, are they? All are not prophets, are they? All are not teachers, are they? All are not workers of miracles, are they? All do not have gifts of healings, do they? All do not speak with tongues, do they? All do not interpret, do they? But earnestly desire the greater gifts. And I show you a still more excellent way.
I used to pray in tounges but I don’t anymore because I don’t really understand it and I never felt comfortable doing it. It seemed a bit ridiculous to me.
Regarding the scripture in 1 Corinthians 12 – “all do not speak with tongues”. So when I’ve been in church and everyone starts babbling together loudly (ie there supposed to be speaking in tongues) – then that’s all it is, a lot of silly babbling which means nothing? To be honest, this is exactly what I used to think when it was happening in church. People seem to be so gullible and will believe and do anything.
Annette – And you’ll never hear them go verse by verse through these passages because of the very tricky questions those verses will raise. These churches are houses of mass confusion.
Yes, houses of mass confusion is a good description. What really distresses me about these churches is that if you don’t go along with what they say, then you are rejected. They try and control people, which is a terrible to do.
What is the root motive for the sin of making the worst assumptions, and describing events in the pejorative? Laughing like Hyenas? The babbling has meaning by interpretation.
Methodism, is a pejorative name, created by Wesley’s enemies.
There is Heaven and paradise, Heaven is like a place made of God’s presence. God is not contained, Ezekiel was swept and swam in the river, which you ignored. Why is this?
You say that God is not contained. Are you saying you believe that God is limitless?
When God’s presence and power on someone, the power of Satan, the yoke is broken. Promise of God, the anointing breaks the yoke of bondage. People move while that is happening, it may not look nice, but it is good!
I am more than happy to go through 1 Corinthians 12 et al with anyone, as there has indeed been much confusion over gifts of the Holy Spirit, miracles, prophesy etcetera. Just because many have gotten it wrong, doesn’t mean that it can’t be put right.
Paul never banned any gift, neither did he put a line under them, just because the apostolic age was drawing to a close. He may have indicated a preference for some rather than others, because they were more profitable to the congregation at large, but no bans were put in place to my knowledge…
Paul’s reaction to wrongful use of gifts was not to ban them, but rather to correct the misuse. After all, isn’t that the purpose of 1 Corinthians 12, 13 and 14? Many evangelicals have stayed away from tongues etc., because of the controversy – none of them wanted to be labeled as the next “Corinthian” church…
Finally, there’s:
“16 Rejoice evermore.
17 Pray without ceasing.
18 In every thing give thanks: for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.
19 Quench not the Spirit.
20 Despise not prophesyings.
21 Prove all things; hold fast that which is good.
22 Abstain from all appearance of evil.” 1 Thess 5:16-22
And in 1 Cornthians 14::
“I37 If anyone thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord’s commandment.
38 But if anyone does not recognize this, he is not recognized.
39 Therefore, my brethren, desire earnestly to prophesy, and do not forbid to speak in tongues.…”
That is the apostle’s command…
1 Therefore I solemnly witness before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who is going to judge the living and the dead according to His appearance and His kingdom, 2 preach the Word, be instant in season and out of season, reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long-suffering and doctrine. 3 For the time will be when they will not endure sound doctrine, but they will heap up teachers to themselves according to their own lusts, tickling the ear. 4 And they will turn away their ears from the truth and will be turned to myths. 5 But you watch in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, fully carry out your ministry.” MKJV
How will Africa, India, and China turn away from Christ if they do not first turn to Christ? Who will convert them, and with power? Who has been successful, who is successful? Heidi for one, Bonnke another. There are some great names.
“Who has been successful, who is successful? Heidi for one, Bonnke another. There are some great names.”
“Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.” Acts 4:12
It is the name of Jesus which is raised up so that all men can be drawn to him. The names of fase apostles and prophets means nothing dunamis. I didn’t put my previous post up there to make out that I agree with you – I don’t. No conversion to Christ or miracles will be done in the name of Heidi Baker – none. You are exalting the wrong people dunamis… God must always get the glory for any true work done in His name.
The scriptures are clear – “it’s not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit says the Lord” Zech 4:6
So regardless of which vessel does the work, the Holy Spirit is working with and through them. True servants of God don’t require exaltation, however, false ministries just love it…
Converts know they are saved by Jesus, of course.
Jesus was questioned as to why his words were to be taken as true, for he needed two witnesses. Jesus gave them two witnesses. And accusations require two witnesses as well, according to Moses. Here it is like Children making things up as they go. The criticisms are invalid. Preachers and their audience have a witness between themselves. Prayer and answer, secret thoughts revealed, love in the message…
“Here it is like Children making things up as they go. The criticisms are invalid.”
dunamis, criticisms based ont eh Bible, rightly divided, are never invalid. You may disagree with someone in an area or two, but most of what is quoted here in terms of scripture, are straight forward passages of scripture, that require very ittle or no interpretation.”
As for being ‘children’ well that’s why God placed various ministries in the body (see Ehpesians 4:11) so that young converts to the faith could grow up and not be like children, tossed around by ‘every wind of doctrine’.
I don’t feel like I’m a child… and I’m certainly not “making it up” as I go…
Why then do you ignore Moses and Jesus on the two witnesses point?
“Why then do you ignore Moses and Jesus on the two witnesses point?”
You bringing up two witnesses has nothing to do with this thread nor Heidi Baker and Reinhard Bonnke.
Why do you keep beating a dead horse?
And while ignoring everything being said in these comments?
Your whole intention is argue with the truth and see how far you can push it. Similar to a 2 year old.
Sanctuary, you’re an idiot. You have done zero research and know almost no Scripture,yet are attempting to argue with discerners who have done years of research and know more about the Bible than you because rather than doing your own research and study, you’d rather take the easy road and listen to liars.
Stop trying to appear as though you know what you’re talking about. You didn’t even know what “NAR” meant and were too lazy to simply google it before asking. That’s lazy! While everyone else here has known about “NAR” for years. Noone else here has to ask such basic questions.
You cannot fool a group of discerners with your childish antics. You will not succeed in dragging us down into the cesspool with you.
Stop ignoring the facts:
“MANY people have died at Bonnke and Hinn crusades.”
“Many have also died and been hurt at Hinn’s crusades in Nigeria, as evidenced by this scene that played out after Hinn claimed Jesus Christ would appear physically on stage with him at this 2000 crusade in Nigeria:”
http://www.deceptioninthechurch.com/bonnke2.html
Luke 17:23-24
“And they will say to you, ‘Look, there!’ or ‘Look, here!’ Do not go out or follow them. 24 For as the lightning flashes and lights up the sky from one side to the other, so will the Son of Man be in his day.”
Mark 13:22
“For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect.”
It seems like you can’t wait until the Antichrist is revealed. You want to be deceived now during Endtimes-Lite.
Sanctuary, On top of all that, in your arrogance you’re arguing with Apollo, who has his own blog, and looks to be only the beginning of a very fine blog. Did you even read what he said about the wheat & tares?
Show us your ‘blog’ if you think you know so much… Lazy.
What is Apollo’s blog. I would love to read it.
http://thorsanvil.wordpress.com/
Thanks Churchwatcher. Just had a quick look and I’m going to really enjoy reading it. The pictures on the front page are very funny. I really like Apollo’s sense of humour, and the way he communicates.
“I really like Apollo’s sense of humour, and the way he communicates.”
Apollo’s integrity runs consistent through all his posts I’ve read here and seen on a couple of other blogs. I too enjoy reading what he writes. He’s friendly, patient, thorough, and detailed.
Hi folks – thanks for all your nice complements and encouragment. It’s early days yet for The Goat’s Pen blog, and while it is fun to ‘corrall’ some of these people and their silly comments, the real thrust will be some very simple but very needful teaching, which many people seem starved of nowadays.
I’m ot claiming to be a world renowned Bible teacher, but I do know the basics and am doing a series on Hebrews 6:1,2, so feel free to come on over and comment, in the meantime if you find any ‘goats’ who may have slipped out of the pen unnoticed, let me know and I’ll corrall their comments too… 🙂
In relation to ‘dunamissanctuary’ demanding “2 witneses” – this is indeed a Biblical principle, which starts off in Deutoronomy 17:6
“At the mouth of two witnesses, or three witnesses, shall he that is worthy of death be put to death; but at the mouth of one witness he shall not be put to death.”
and extends throughout the Bible to 1 Timothy 5:19″
“19 against an elder receive not an accusation, but before two or three witnesses.
20Them that sin rebuke before all, that others also may fear.”
So the principle is valid, but the question is ‘dunamis’ – does it apply here? Notice in those two quotes listed above, how they were both serious matters? A death sentence for beaking the Law, and the public rebuke of elders caught in sin – not minor matters at all.
If I had to go and get “two witnesses” every time I needed to quote something from the scriptures, I’d spend all day, so it’s better to put the scripture(s) out there, in context, so that the readers can assess what’s been said and satisfy themselves as to its veracity. If I was putting together a sermon then I’d need a lot more than one or two verses anyway.
Those who are mature will have no problems with that:
“But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.” Hebrews 5:14
So you can see ‘dunamis’, things are just not ‘made up’ as we go along, and answers are studied and put together as the Holy Spirit enables us to compare scripture with scripture until we come up with a God inspired solution, based upon His word – not “prophesy” or flights of fancy…
I find this blog to be faulty software.
What “faulty” software dunamis? I’ve had a few posts disappear in the past two weeks, but CW has explained why that sometimes happens. If you mean that the posts/posters on the bllog aren’t making any sense, then perhaps you need to do some more research into your famous preachers…
They gain no respect from us because they have departed from the faith that was once handed down to the saints. They prophesy falsely and by and large, are after people’s money. That’s why they are called false prophets…
“when was the last time you saw someone “interpret” tongues?”
“2003”
dunamissanctuary, We’re supposed to believe that on your advice alone? I don’t think so, especially given your low reputation and total lack of credibility here.
Another baseless internet claim.
Perhaps you will point us to a video of this incident of tongues and so-called ‘interpretation’, so someone can authenticate it.
You can probably find some on youtube if you search. There are some by Kenneth Copeland and some I have heard first hand at churches locally.
NAR does not result in an answer in a web search. It gives Nucleic Acid Research.
I believe that any ‘tongues’ spoken by Copeland would have to be false tongues.
Why would the Holy Spirit choose to operate through a man who teaches patently obvious false doctrines on Christ, redemption, tithing, “speaking the word” word confession doctrines, seed faith, metaphysical healing practices etcetera?
The Copelands have many mansions, aeroplanes and other perks, which are inconsistant to the calling of God on a person’s life. Perhaps like Barnabas, they could sell all they have, give the proceeds to the poor and then really go and follow Jesus… or not.